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19 years ago
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But what if you make a mistake and, without realizing it (i.e., unintentionally), become a cheater?
Exactly, even if the battle is won 100%, there will still be a chance of a difference in losses. That is, as a result, we might end up with a couple more dragons. What should be done in this case? I don't know how to use ArtMoney, but I have no doubt that it is a "parasite."
In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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IronAxe;87399
However, look at how many people used this automation tool in the tournament, and the computer didn't change anyone's tactics; it just ran after the sniper. So, keep your speculations to yourself. Now it's your turn to prove that the computer CAN change its tactics even once in this battle! If you prove it, then we can continue the discussion, but if not, there's nothing to discuss. Your claim is unsubstantiated and based on an assumption, while my claim is based on PRACTICE, so it is not unsubstantiated.

Iron, you should have studied mathematics and elementary logic back in the day... you waste so much of your own and others' time... :)

For example, I have never encountered ball lightning in my life, and I don't know anyone who has. Therefore, it doesn't exist. Show it to me, and then I'll believe it... Or something like that.

If an event has not occurred even once, it does not mean that it cannot happen.
IronAxe;87399
so keep your speculations to yourself.
Indeed, why am I even sharing my thoughts here? It's just empty talk... If it were up to me, I would officially allow IronAxe to use all the techniques and programs he knows in the game and would never question this right. Play however you want, why drag others into this mess? Stop lobbying for ArtMoney here. Smart people have already made it clear to you - if you want to use it, use it quietly and enjoy it. Just don't tell anyone about it...
Сначала было слово...
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In reply to AmberSoler
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19 years ago
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AmberSoler;87388
There is no way to prove that the battle is stuck in a loop. We don't know how the AI works. Just imagine that it has a principle built in, such as "after N turns in a cycle, switch tactics," or something else... For example, instead of attacking the nearest unit, it attacks a ballista...

In other words, if you haven't encountered this behavior through experimentation, it doesn't prove that it can't happen in principle... Therefore, it won't work... Please, simulate the entire battle from start to finish, but don't jump from the start to the end just because "I'm sure..."
I tried to eliminate the Earth Elementals manually using other methods, with harpies and snipers.

The snipers had a limited number of shots, so they couldn't eliminate most of the elementals.

However, the harpies, with their retaliatory attacks, dealt much more damage than the ballista.
The battle lasted 3 hours manually, and at some points, it started to seem like, if my hand faltered, it would all be over...

In this battle, as in the case with the ballista, the snipers were a distraction, and the harpies acted as the ballista.

BUT! after about 50 Earth Elementals remained, they suddenly stopped chasing the snipers and rushed towards the harpies. And that's where,
if we had an automated system, we would have failed.

So, there is some truth to what AmberSoler said.
Клан Homo homini

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...
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19 years ago
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Iron, why do you always bring up other portals as examples? In almost every post, you write something like, "If you wanted to understand me" or "You still didn't get my point." Yes, we're just too stupid to understand your thoughts, Iron Hammer!!! If Arcomage only automates cyclical processes for you, then I simply have nothing to counter with! ;)
In reply to vbn
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19 years ago
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vbn;87497

BUT! after about 50 earth elementals were left, for some reason they stopped chasing the snipers and rushed the harpies. And that's where,
if we had an automator, we would have messed up.

So AmberSoler's words make sense.

I agree with Vbn and AmberSoler. I can actually confirm this case using a documented example from the last tournament; in the final battle to capture the artifact (it was my first time fighting without using a power field), I won, though not without problems; then I had to write the tactics for the final battle for the VDV and, oh horror, I realized that I couldn't win because the computer changed its tactics and from a certain point (about 95-100 ED left) it ignores the archangels and starts killing the snipers, and simply put, I ran out of mana.
"Мы принимаем бой!!!!!!!" - кричали они:D :D :D
In reply to Kamikaze
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19 years ago
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Kamikaze;87412
Exactly, even if a battle is won 100% of the time, there's still a probability of different loss totals. That is, in the end, we might end up with a couple more dragons. How to handle this? I don't know how to use ArtMoney, but I have no doubt that this is "parasitic"
:) Such battles where it's "crowd vs crowd" are usually not ArtMonied. Any way, after several dozen rounds, the player no longer takes losses, spends no mana, and uses no arrows, while the enemy, for example, slowly dies from poison while chasing units. And I have no doubt that this is not a "parasite," but a good time SAVER on stupid, long, but guaranteed-to-win battles that you've already completed many times and know that no matter how the computer changes tactics, you will still win manually. For those who still don't get it: the discussion of using ArtMoney is NOT about all battles, but about long standard battles (fairies vs skeletons, etc.).

Added after 30 minutes
AmberSoler;87435
Iron, you really should have studied mathematics and elementary logic back in the day... you're wasting so much of your own and others' time... :)
:) Mathematician—you're the one who needs to study logic, and I'll prove it to you right now.
AmberSoler;87435

For example, I have never encountered ball lightning in my life and don't know a single person who has. Therefore, it doesn't exist. Now show it to me, then I'll believe... Well, or something along those lines.
A smart person, an educated one, even if they've never seen ball lightning themselves and don't know anyone who has, will believe in its existence without seeing it, simply by having information from at least a school curriculum. I am proving to you that there are battles that are won no matter what, EVEN if the computer changes tactics however it wants. Usually, such battles are stupid and long. Practically everyone knows about them—both judges and players :) And they've already been proven by time and practice :) I don't understand why EVERYONE tries to force players to grind these stupid battles live for several hours when everything is already clear anyway :)
AmberSoler;87435

If an event has never happened once, then based on that alone, you cannot claim that it cannot happen.
And if this event has happened even once, then based on that, you ALREADY can claim that such an event is possible. For example, in 4, a battle on morale from an external dwelling is ALWAYS won and a fairy beats any number of CD. Why conduct it live every time?? Explain from your logical point of view—who the hell needs this?
AmberSoler;87435

Indeed, why am I even stating my thoughts here. Pure word-spinning... If it were up to me, I would officially allow IronAxe to use all known tricks and programs while playing and would never question that right. Play however you want; why drag others into this swamp? Stop lobbying ArtMoney here.
And many people don't need YOUR official permission :) They use it anyway. This isn't a swamp. Your swamp is forcing people to manually grind multi-hour stupid battles that are guaranteed wins.
AmberSoler;87435

Smart people already told you clearly once—if you want to use it, use it quietly and be happy. Just don't tell anyone about it...
:) Read carefully what AmberSoler wrote! Notice that the word "smart" is not in quotes. This means smart people knew what they were saying and had sufficient information on this matter—and I'll clarify who those were: some of the portal masters :) Only, I considered it wrong that others shouldn't be told about this, because I don't take anyone for a fool. The essence of their statements was as follows: this cannot be brought to the masses, because then every newbie will start hacking EVERY battle in a row and chaos will ensue. That is, by their definition—they divided players into two parts—some can UNOFFICIALLY save their time, while others face an OFFICIAL ban on ArtMoney. This exact framing of the issue is what I didn't like then and don't like now. And when these smart people, being masters of Gorbik's resource—the portal—explained it all to me, a fool, I got a bit smarter; but I didn't intend to and don't intend to use this in secret. That's why I'm trying to establish such a rule—because at the moment I don't feel protected from relatively unfair play. And all of this is based on facts. I know people use it, I know organizers can't tell who completed a battle manually or not, and I've heard from smart people in responsible positions that if you know how and are able—use it silently. But I want everyone to be on equal terms in this regard, because we're talking about saving personal real-life time—and that is sacred :)
Added after 36 minutes
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vbn;87497
The battle lasted 3 hours manually, and at some moments it started to seem that my hand would shake—and that' same it...
In this battle, as in the case with the ballista, snipers were a distraction, and harpies acted as the ballista.
BUT! after about 50 earth units remained, for some reason they stopped chasing snipers and rushed the harpies.
But nevertheless, the battle was won, if I understood you correctly?
How? Explain. Did you have to spend additional mana on magic? Can you write the details of the winning tactic?
vbn

And this is where, having an automator, we would have messed up.
So there is sense in AmberSoler's words.
While my words have no sense :)
A battle automator should primarily be in the head :) ; in practice, one must know that a battle is won NO MATTER WHAT, otherwise is there any point in conducting such a battle manually next time. I agree that not all battles fall under this; we're talking about battles like fairy vs skeletons.

Added after 11 minutes
Kamikaze;87518
Iron, why do you always use other portals as examples??? You write every other post "if you wanted to understand me" or "you still didn't get my point." Yes, we are just too stupid to understand your thoughts, Iron Axe!!!
And what am I guilty of ???
Kamikaze;87518

If ArtMoney only automates cyclic processes, then I simply have nothing to hit with! ;)
Well, consider it almost that way :) It just skips the cyclic processes of the battle; in the end, after the battle, we have no advantages over those who did it manually (not a couple extra skeletons, nor one extra mana point). It doesn't save us any troops, mana, or arrows during the battle.
Only ArtMoney isn't just something I have :) I personally know what can be done with it and what cannot. I tried to explain; some understood me, some didn't. Those who didn't—don't even try to steer ArtMoney :) And if an organizer puts a stupid long battle on the map—bash your keyboard for several hours if you want to try to make the top ten, BUT why, if you are 100% sure that the battle is winnable. And as for there being no such battles and not being able to be 100% sure—AmberSoler is lying to you. Such battles exist in both 4 and 3.

Added after 16 minutes
OlegRS;87560
I agree with Vbn and AmberSoler. I can confirm this case documentarily using the example of the last
Your case confirms nothing and refutes nothing, let alone "documentarily." Present the documents first :)
OlegRS;87560

tournament, in the final battle for capture art (I conducted the battle for the first time without using a force field), I won not without problems, but I won;
Here you won :)
OlegRS;87560

then I had to write the tactic of the final battle for VDV and, oh horror, I realized that I couldn't win, because the computer changed tactics and from a certain point (about 95-100 GD remained) it ignores archs and starts killing snipers, and I simply stopped having enough mana.
So first you won, and then when it came time to write the description, you realized that winning is impossible because the computer changes tactics :) Well now. Now I don't understand anything at all :)
PS.
Here is what I'll tell you: This battle cannot be subject to either automation or ArtMonization BECAUSE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BATTLE WE MUST SPEND MANA, and depending on the computer's change of tactics, it depends which magic we spend, and that determines how much mana we spend by the end of the fight because different magics cost a different number of mana points. So why are you pushing your example, and "confirming documentarily" at that. You better think about a battle with one fairy against 1000 skeletons and look for associations with it or analogues of such a battle where from the very beginning or a certain point the battle is won WITHOUT SPENDING CONSUMABLES OR YOUR OWN TROOPS.
In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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IronAxe;86571
Are you suggesting that the defense should be so strong that even an experienced player would have trouble getting out of the starting area? The maps that VDV posts for tournaments, especially those with surprises, are dynamic. In a long, tedious battle with a large but slow defense, we can quickly level up our hero using automatons. But according to your idea, we would have to build up and accumulate troops just to level up the hero so that he can get out of the starting area and acquire the appropriate magic. As a result, instead of one problem (tedious, long battles - but there's a solution with automatons), we'll get another (building up + accumulating troops for leveling up and acquiring skills and magic - but there's no way to speed that up).
The time problem can be solved quickly: Just if you place surprises, do it without any defense... just walk up and level up... and then you'll kill two birds with one stone: first, you won't have to use any external programs (including ArtMoney), and second, you won't have to waste time leveling up the hero.
In reply to K0Lb@zzeR
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19 years ago
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K0Lb@zzeR;87806
The time issue can be resolved quickly: simply place surprises without guards... just walk up and level up... and then you'll kill two birds with one stone: first, you won't need to use any external programs (including ArtMoney), and second, you won't have to waste time leveling up your hero.
And thirdly, few people would know that the ballista has infinite ammunition and the tactic of fighting with a single ballista :) if the organizers didn't create such battles. I mean, maybe no one would have even figured it out if all the leveling spots and treasure chests were always placed on maps without guards.
In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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IronAxe;87809
And thirdly, few would have known that the ballista has infinite ammunition and a battle tactic involving a single ballista :) if the organizers hadn't created such battles. I mean, maybe no one would have even figured it out if all the upgrade stations and boxes were placed on maps without any guards.

Why go to extremes... to showcase a trick or a bug with the ballista (I honestly don't know what to call it correctly), you could simply place 50, or even 100 golems... those who know the trick/bug with the ballista would have grabbed the prize on the first day, and those who don't know wouldn't (and the fact that the battle takes a lot of time would automatically be eliminated). And there would be no need to waste time on such a battle, and there would be no need for any kind of automation.
Also, what's the point of a battle with 1 fairy against 1000 skeletons? You could simply place 50-100 skeletons, the main thing is to grasp the meaning of these battles, but not to sit in front of the computer, engaging in nonsense for several hours, struggling with the battle.
In reply to K0Lb@zzeR
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19 years ago
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K0Lb@zzeR;87823
Also with the fight of 1 fairy against 1000 skeletons, why??? You could just put 50-100 skeletons instead, the main thing is to capture the meaning of these fights, but not go grey in front of the computer engaging in own absurdity for several hours, puffing over a battle.
I am not the organizer and I cannot tell them which units to place where. The point is whether it's legitimate to use an automator or artifacts if those units are already on the map :) But I can agree that the main thing is to capture the meaning of the fight, which many people already know anyway. As for how to win this fight — for many people, that's not a problem. That's why I wrote somewhere above — read more carefully — that as long as long, guaranteed-win fights are available on the maps, many players will use the methods available to them to speed up the process.
In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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IronAxe;87838
...as long as maps offer long, guaranteed winnable battles, many players will use available methods to speed up the process.
This is not news. And what is the point of this conversation? Do you want someone from the local administration to write an official permission for everyone to use Arta as they see fit? I don't think that will happen... I don't understand what you are trying to achieve... Are you trying to inform players that at least one person among us will use officially prohibited methods of the game? You did that six months ago, and everyone has already come to terms with this fact. What's next? State your ultimate goal, otherwise we'll just go in circles again...
Сначала было слово...
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In reply to AmberSoler
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19 years ago
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AmberSoler;87922
This is not news. What is the point of this conversation? Do you want some local official to write an official permission for everyone to use Artu as they see fit?
Not as they see fit, but within the established rules, which should be based on logically understandable, long battles. As an excellent logician, you should understand this :) And why are you picking on Artmoni? As far as I know, VDV also said that there are many other real-time automation and optimization tools. It's a matter of taste – the main thing is to achieve results and save personal time, but within the rules of the game, as I said above. Cheat programs are like an analog of an automation tool, but with the rights of an automation tool. Verification based on descriptions. If someone exceeds the permissible limits of using the automation tool, the punishment will be at the discretion of the administration. But in this case, everyone will be on equal footing, both in terms of application and punishment for improper use. How much more clearly can I explain this – I don't understand.
AmberSoler;87922

I don't think this will happen... I can't understand what you are trying to achieve...
Perhaps it is difficult to deviate from standards, especially with such vehement misunderstanding of the issue.
AmberSoler;87922

To convey to the players the information that at least one person among us will use officially prohibited methods of the game? You conveyed this half a year ago, and everyone has already come to terms with this fact. What's next? State your ultimate goal, otherwise we're just going in circles again...
As you can see, the information was not correctly understood by everyone :) The fact is that officially prohibited methods of the game do not actually do ANYTHING prohibited by the rules of the game itself, but their prohibition only forces players who want to play for results to hammer away at the keyboard for many hours, performing monotonous actions of moving pieces back and forth :) Of course, these methods can be used to commit an illegal action that violates the rules of the game itself – for example, to win an impossible battle. But for such cases, there are checks for both saves and checks based on descriptions. And they are more reliable than identifying which automation tool the player used to pass a battle that was obviously passable.

Added 5 minutes ago
:smile19: Deleted :smile19:
Kyle: please refrain from personal attacks!
In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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Thank you to everyone who wanted to comment on some aspects of the past tournament, especially AmberaSolera, who always approaches such moments with particular care and expresses his thoughts clearly, competently, and concisely!

1. So that players like IronAxe don't think that someone might use a third-party program like ArtMany, and also are not sure that the organizer can track this, long, obviously winnable battles (1 fairy against 1000 zombies) will be completely excluded from tournaments, or will be structured in such a way that no automation tool can make the player's life easier for even a minute (see surprise #1 in the Best of the Best tournament)!
2. The Ballista is not a bug.
3. A NEW TOURNAMENT HOST FOR HEROES 3 HAS BEEN APPOINTED: THE RESPECTED KYLE!

Now about some changes to the rules for Heroes 3 (taking into account the wishes of respected forum members).

Correction of the rules based on the example of the last 3 stages.

2. The tournament will be held on the Russian version of The Shadow of Death with patch 3.2. The save is generated on the Heroes 3 version of The Shadow of Death with patch 3.2. It is also allowed to play on the following versions of Heroes 3: The Restoration of Erathia, Armageddon's Blade, Platinum Edition. Players on these versions should remember the existing bugs:

a) Double casting of spells in one game turn.
b) Selling artifacts at inflated prices.
c) Buying a dead hero (your own or the computer's).
d) Digging up the Grail in 1 day.

6. The submitted save must have no more than 2 heroes. The rest must simply be dismissed (heroes sitting in castles must also be dismissed. Exceptions are only heroes who are in the garrison of a castle that is attacked by the opponent in the final battle, when passing the turn).

9. It is forbidden to: use cheat programs, codes, bugs, and additional programs that can change the structure of the game.

10. Send the save to Kyle's email.

11. In case of suspicion of a player cheating, or other malicious intent when completing the map, it is necessary to save the beginning and end of each game day.

In this case (detection of cheating), the player must send additional saves, as well as provide a description of the walkthrough, to determine whether the game was unfair or fair, to the tournament organizer, within 15 days after the end of the tournament.

The results of a player who played unfairly, as well as did not send his description (saves) in time at the request of the tournament organizer, will be annulled, and his further participation in tournaments will be impossible. This will also affect his reputation, not in a good way.

12. Discussion of the tournament during its course is PROHIBITED!!!
If the organizer, or his assistant, is documentarily convinced of the discussion of the tournament in any place on the Internet, he has the right to permanently exclude such players from participating in tournaments on www.heroesworld.ru. The results of such players will not be counted and will be annulled.

13. The tournament starts *** and will last until *** (inclusive, until 24:00 Moscow time!). Preliminary results will be announced on ***.
The final results will be announced no later than ***.

Sincerely, VDV_forever
Единый справочник по Героям Меча и Магии

ТУРНИРЫ ПО ГЕРОЯМ 1!:smile13:
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19 years ago
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Expanding on the ideas from the tournament topic: It might be possible to create "losing" save files and post them for the tournament. That is, the player would be placed in a clearly disadvantageous position. And then, the goal would be to achieve victory from a dead end. Such tournaments could be called something like "Fixing Mistakes."
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Клан Homo homini - основатель клана
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In reply to AlexeyPank
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19 years ago
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And won’t it be possible to play on the Test Environment?
играю на уровне AI !!:smile32: ;)

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