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#6679
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darkello
I don't understand what you're talking about. I personally only saw this game presented in the Appeals Committee. The Appeals Committee's decision could have had several options; this one is perhaps the most reasonable.

Then read about, for example, the Tournament game that was a favorite between Svarog and Maydak.
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In reply to Juristis
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#6680
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Juristis
Why the sudden call for a replay?
This bug wasn't prohibited by the rules at the time it was used. Myduck actively used it in January, and there was definitely an attempt against Cobra. The bug is well-known and understood, but it wasn't prohibited.
Changes to the rules cannot be applied retroactively to games that were played before the changes were made.
I agree that this bug should be prohibited, but I believe that in this situation, only Redwhite has the right to decide whether to replay the match or not.

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In reply to skd
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#6681
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Did Svarog call AK?
If not, then the comparison is inappropriate.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
In reply to Javdet
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#6682
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Javdet
Did Svarog call the AK?
If not, then the comparison is inappropriate.

Okay, but at the time the decision was made, the AK rules didn't prohibit it! That's one. As you yourself noted, the bug WAS USED in a tournament game, and no one objected because, following the rules, anything not prohibited is permitted! That's two. No one even thought to write to the AK. As I understand the system, the decision should be made based on the RULES IN EFFECT at the time the decision was made. The rules shouldn't be changed to make "correct" decisions. If the AK had supported Redwait and THEN officially prohibited it in the rules (although, in my opinion, such a decision should be made by the entire community through an open vote), so that this bug would not be used in the future, then your position would be absolutely correct.
But changing the rules like that – wanting to and just changing them – is simply ridiculous :smile52:
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In reply to =Lizard=
#6683
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evil_romantic
After reviewing the Redwhite-Nitro AK match, a decision was made: the match must be replayed, and the hat bug is now prohibited.
Who is currently on the AK committee? I would like to know who made this decision.
In reply to Dima Surmay
#6684
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Dima Surmay
Who is currently on the Tournament Committee?
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In reply to Hiwanna
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#6685
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Hiwanna
Okay, but at the time the decision was made, the rules didn't prohibit it! That's one. As you yourself noted, the bug WAS USED in a tournament game, and no one was outraged because, following the rules – if it's not prohibited, it's allowed! That's two. No one even thought about writing to the Arbitration Committee. As I understand the system, the decision should be made based on the RULES IN EFFECT at the time the decision was made. And the rules shouldn't be changed to make "correct" decisions. If the Arbitration Committee had supported Redwait, and THEN officially prohibited it in the rules (although, in my opinion, such a decision should be made by the entire community through an open vote), so that this bug would not be used in the future, then your position would be absolutely correct.
But changing the rules like this – wanting something and then changing it – is just ridiculous :smile52:
I started writing a long reply, but then I thought, why bother.
You've probably heard of the phrase "Solomon's judgment." So, during the reign of this guy, there was probably a legal framework, but the fellow clearly didn't bother with it. And he made decisions primarily based on logic and common sense.
And if common sense suggests that a prohibited technique was used in the game, even if it was officially allowed, then I don't see any reason not to respond to the injustice.
And yes, regarding "today it's allowed, but it wasn't allowed then" – better late than never.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
In reply to Javdet
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#6686
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Javdet
I started writing a lengthy response, but then I thought, what's the point?
You've probably heard of the phrase "Solomon's solution." During this guy's reign, there was likely a legal framework, but he clearly didn't bother with it. He made decisions primarily based on logic and common sense.
And if common sense suggests that an illegal tactic was used in a game, even if it was officially allowed, I see no reason not to speak out against the injustice.
And yes, regarding "it's okay today, but it wasn't okay then" - better late than never.
Couldn't have said it better myself +1000
The specific individuals aren't relevant here; in fact, we're discussing actions that could have been committed by completely different people (players), in a completely different tournament or league, at a completely different time.

лето 2012.
In reply to Javdet
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#6687
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Javdet
I started writing a lengthy response, but then I thought, what's the point.
You've probably heard of the phrase "Solomon's judgment." So, during the reign of this guy, there was most likely a legal framework, but the fellow clearly didn't bother with it. And he made decisions primarily based on logic and common sense.
And if common sense suggests that an illegal tactic was used in the game, even if it was officially allowed, then I see no reason not to retaliate against the injustice.
And yes, regarding "what's allowed today might not be allowed tomorrow" – better late than never.

So, you understand that at the time the Arbitration Committee made its decision, this action was officially allowed. So why was the verdict not in favor of Redwait, if everything was officially allowed?

Added 5 minutes later
darkello
You couldn't have said it better +1000
Specific people are not relevant here; in fact, the discussion revolves around actions that could have been committed by completely different individuals (players), in a completely different tournament or fan game, at a completely different time.

No, Darkello, the decision made by the Arbitration Committee is being discussed here. The discussion is about why:
a) Such a decision was made in favor of Nitro, even though it contradicts the rules according to which the decision was made.
b) The Arbitration Committee should not be above the rules; otherwise, what's the point of having rules? What's the point of following them if anyone can file a complaint and the decision will be made in their favor?!
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#6688
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Hiwanna
So, you understand that at the time the decision was made, the action was officially permitted. So why was the verdict not in favor of Redwait, if everything was officially allowed?
I think I already answered your question in the text you just quoted. You should first of all be guided by common sense.
I understand, I perfectly understand, take the time to read my posts about it from the time of the incident itself.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
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#6689
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Javdet
Yes, technically he didn't violate any rules, but in reality, he turned the game into a farce.

This kind of excessive exploitation should be prohibited at the rule level. That's all.

I don't want to repeat myself, but it seems I have to. There are rules that should regulate these moments. If a moment is not specified in the rules, it is allowed. Is this fair? Yes. Is there common sense in these words? Yes. The next interesting question is: Did Redwrite write these rules? No. Should Redwrite follow the rules of the game? Yes. Then why should comrade Evgeny be held responsible for the oversight of the people who didn't deem it necessary to immediately include this bug in the game rules? And that's a question I can't find an answer to, because it seems like he shouldn't be, but it also seems like the decision was made against him.

p.s. Of course, you can't turn the game into a farce, but you definitely shouldn't turn the rules, regulations, and everything else into a farce! And isn't that common sense?
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#6690
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So, should we also report unplayable situations that occur during tournament matches to the Tournament Committee for a Solomon-like decision? Practically no one objects to banning this "bug," but what has been played has been played, and Reddit is entitled to decide whether a rematch is necessary, given the circumstances that have arisen.
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In reply to Hiwanna
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#6691
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Hiwanna
I don't want to repeat myself, but I guess I have to. There are rules that should govern these situations. If a situation isn't specified in the rules, it's allowed. Is that fair? Yes. Is there common sense in these words? Yes. The interesting question is: Did Redwait write these rules? No. Should Redwait follow the rules of the game? Yes. So why should comrade Evgeny be held responsible for the oversight of the guys who didn't think it was necessary to immediately include this bug in the rules of the game? This is a question I can't find an answer to, because it seems like he shouldn't be, but it also seems like the decision wasn't made in his favor.

p.s. Of course, you can't turn the game into a farce, but you definitely can't turn the rules, regulations, and everything else into a farce! Isn't that common sense?
A counter-question: what was comrade Evgeny thinking about at that moment? Did he want to put on a show? He succeeded. At the same time, he violated the rules of fair play.
In any society, there are unwritten rules (moral norms) that it is desirable to adhere to. And if a person violates these norms without breaking the law, it doesn't mean that he is acting normally and that he won't face consequences. Now let's project this onto our situation.
Comrade Evgeny CONSCIOUSLY violated certain moral norms, and instead of punishment, he gets a win. And all this is only because of a loophole in the law. Is it fair to deprive him of this win by rewriting the law? The question is rhetorical; everyone has the right to their own opinion on this. But encouraging such actions is fraught with consequences. In the near future, other precedents will arise, and they will again point the finger at AK and accuse him of inconsistency.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
In reply to Javdet
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#6692
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Javdet
The counter-question is: what was Comrade Evgeny thinking about at that moment? Did he want to put on a show? - He succeeded. At the same time, he violated the rules of fair play.
In any society, there are unwritten rules (moral norms) that it is desirable to adhere to. And if a person violates these norms without breaking the law, it does not mean that he is acting correctly and that he will not face retribution. Now, let's project this onto our situation.
Comrade Evgeny CONSCIOUSLY violated certain moral norms, and instead of punishment, he receives a win. And all this is only because of a loophole in the law. Is it fair to deprive him of this win by rewriting the law? The question is rhetorical; everyone has the right to their personal opinion on this. But encouraging such actions is fraught with consequences. In the near future, other precedents will arise, and they will again point the finger at AK and accuse them of inconsistency.

Let's take it in order: This was a crucial game, and Redwhite was thinking about how to win. And he won without breaking any rules. This is about the legal aspect of the issue. As for the moral aspect, I believe that he played, as you put it, violating certain moral norms. Fine. So, let him decide for himself whether he wants to replay HIS FAIR VICTORY? There is also the point that winners are not judged, but it seems that this is not the case with us. (
p.s. In any civilized country in the world, there are places called courts. And people are judged there according to the laws of that country, but in every legal system, there are various loopholes in the laws that people like lawyers are not ashamed to use. Moreover, the better you know the laws and the loopholes in them, the better you are as a lawyer! If you can use the laws in a way that benefits you, no court can punish you. And your "retribution," to put it in comparison, is that you don't go to court as a civilized person to prove your case; it's like finding the offender in a dark alley and beating him with a bat. All this digression is to start understanding where you have legal norms, on which the system of rules and AK operates, and where you have moral norms - your personal attitude to this situation and your vision of "fair play." And to order a replay of a fairly won game, while changing the rules of the game in a specific situation to punish the player, is absurd and a farce on the part of AK.
In general, we are starting to engage in demagoguery; we need to wait for AK's explanation on this issue and try to find out the reasons for this action, rather than just chatting.
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In reply to Hiwanna
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#6693
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I enjoy discussions about questions that don't have a clear-cut answer. :)
Just like the questions about abortion, stem cells, and so on.
And as always, after responsible people make a decision, there are those who are unhappy.
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