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#5694
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Glass-eyed, I am genuinely ashamed of you. Tell the citizens of Russia how the FSB blew up apartment buildings in Russia before the Second Chechen War. http://vk.com/video8032272_138215607
Весна 2013.
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#5695
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This constant use of the term "civil war" is getting tiresome. It reminds me of "Our Russia" with its famous phrase, "Are you all idiots?". Want to argue? Create a group on Skype or Viber and have a field day discussing Java, Dark, Vatya, and all the others! There's no need to project your wild fantasies onto the world. Or, show me even one civilian (let alone mass involvement of civilians), besides the "titushki," who would stand alongside the police to defend the government? There aren't any; they just sit and tremble in front of their screens. Right now, we have a clear-cut uprising that is being suppressed by regular security forces, period. Enough with the nonsense; shut up, or because of people like you, who support this, this very war will begin. To everyone who continues to pontificate and flaunt their skills as a wise, self-proclaimed political expert in Russia, as well as in Ukraine, I remind you that the struggle is not for a golden toilet. Everyone understands that the new rulers will have the same one. The struggle is against the usurpation of power by one person. After coming to power in 2010, this very person amended the country's constitution, granting him imperial powers. This nation needs a legitimate and transparent change of power. History clearly states that Ukrainians have never had THEIR own tsar, and they never will. And it's absurd to compare Russians and Ukrainians based on their Slavic heritage; they have different mentalities, "I am a worm" versus "the force of action generates the force of resistance." The eastern regions are less active precisely because of their "eastern" passivity – "we'll sit it out, we'll wait, the Tsar-father will fix everything..." I hate this weakness; it's simply repulsive! Ukrainians are truly highly politicized, and it's best not to mess with them; don't come here with your rusty samovar. Let's just peacefully play Heroes.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#5696
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Piterius
History clearly states that Ukrainians never had THEIR own king, and they never will.
This is a case where a correct initial premise, combined with incorrect logical reasoning, leads to an incorrect conclusion. Such instances clearly reveal the level of political literacy of the individual.

Indeed, Ukrainians never had their own kings. They had foreign kings – Russian, Polish, Soviet, and even Turkish ones were also present.

And as long as the game of "legitimate and transparent change of power" continues, there will be a struggle among foreign kings for the opportunity to control the political steering wheel of Ukraine. We are currently observing the acute phase of this process.

This game can end in two ways – either one of the foreign kings will defeat the others, or a king of their own will appear, who will drive out the agents of influence of the foreign kings.

But it is better to tell fairy tales about democracy to children at night; they might believe them.
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#5697
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Don't lump everyone together; I've been to Kharkiv and Kryvyi Rih (your region), and the people in those cities said they would have their say. You're just looking at the situation one-sidedly. Ranting and making a well-considered decision are two different things. I'll repeat: I don't support either the Maidan or the government; I'm for well-considered decisions. P.S. You're right, there are at least two truths, and people like "us" don't need to be taken into account, right? I'm eagerly awaiting the new government; I think Yanukovych will have the sense to resign.
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#5698
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Uncle Vic, I noticed a long time ago, and I'm probably not the only one, that while you're knowledgeable about history and skilled in assessing the effectiveness of different forms of government for various segments of the population, you clearly struggle when it comes to deviating from established, obvious norms. And when it comes to predictions, you're completely clueless, just like everyone else here. So, let's be patient and see what happens next. I don't see any circumstances under which your argument could be proven true, regardless of the outcome. Are you just flexing your "skill" by making unsubstantiated claims? If you're going to keep bringing up "the influence of foreign agents," either make it the central point or explain how you envision it. How will you prove or justify your claims without relying on "that's how it was, and that's how it will be"?
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#5699
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Piterius
as soon as you need to deviate from generally accepted, obvious canons, there is a clear limitation.
For example?
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#5700
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Dark30
Don't paint everyone with the same brush. I've been to Kharkiv and Kryvyi Rih (your region), and the people there are far from the worst. They say they will make their voices heard, but you're looking at the situation one-sidedly. Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're making a well-considered decision.
I repeat, I don't support Maidan or the current government; I'm for well-considered decisions.

P.S. You're right, there are at least two truths, and people like "us" don't need to be taken into account, right? I'm eagerly awaiting the new government; I think Yanukovych will have the sense to resign.

Words are cheap; actions speak louder. We can talk all day, but when it comes to action, we hide in the bushes, "my house is on the edge."
What do you call well-considered decisions? In Bosnia, the government resigned on the third day of protests, the people got what they wanted, and everyone went home. Here, the trough is more important than the lives of many people. That's certainly the most well-considered decision in the world.
Resignation is inevitable; I agree with you 100%.

Added 2 minutes later
Wicc
For example?

What's an example? All you hear is "it will be like this because it always has been and always will be," "it has to be this way because it was this way there and there, because that's how it is with us, and it will only be that way with you." I don't even read it anymore, even though I used to enjoy it.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#5701
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Piterius
Talking is one thing, doing is another. We're more interested in chatting than in taking action. And when it comes to action, we'll just sit back and watch.
What do you call well-considered decisions? In Bosnia, on the third day of protests, the government resigned, and the people got what they wanted and dispersed. Here, the trough is more important than the lives of many people. This is, of course, the most well-considered decision in the world.
Resignation is inevitable, I agree with you completely.
As you rightly pointed out, everyone understands everything, both ours and theirs, and the difference between us and the argument lies in the fact that "Talking is one thing, doing is another. We're more interested in chatting than in taking action. And when it comes to action, we'll just sit back and watch." And a well-considered decision is to think first about what to do next, and then act. Your position is to act first, and then think about what to do next. The topic has been discussed ad nauseam, and I agree with you completely that playing Heroes is much better than these forum squabbles.
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#5702
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPPxZl43u04
Someone asked for links – here you go. This channel shows what everyone else keeps quiet about. Of course, they're doing it for money, a lot of money from foreign agents.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#5703
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Piterius
So, either don't make "the power of foreign agents" the main focus, or explain how you see it working?
How can it not be the main focus... who else will spread propaganda, form an underground criminal network, sabotage the actions of the authorities, and put obstacles in their way? It's difficult to do this from across the ocean; a local presence is needed.

The technology behind the "Orange Revolution" is based on this:
- The media shapes the desired point of view both within the country and abroad.
- An underground network recruits and trains fighters and supporters, mainly from those who share Juristis's mindset.
- The authorities' efforts to counter this process are sabotaged, both during the preparation and the active phase.

This is a well-tested scenario, including in 2004 in Ukraine. For this, yes, many agents of influence are needed – at least in the media, in youth organizations, and in law enforcement.

But recently, they have learned how to fight it. It turns out that simply not allowing things to escalate is enough, and the scenario begins to falter. The key factor is the position of law enforcement agencies – if they are capable and loyal to the government, then the "Maidans" fail. This is what has happened to the Americans in Kazakhstan, Belarus, and Russia in recent years.

And if you also put pressure on the media and various NGOs (which Putin is currently doing), then even preparing for a "Maidan" becomes difficult, and bringing it to the active phase becomes even more difficult.
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#5704
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Dark30
As you rightly pointed out, everyone understands everything, both ours and theirs, the difference between us and the argument lies in the fact that "talking is not the same as doing, we're happy to just chat, but action is another matter. And when it comes to action, we disappear into the bushes, my house is on the edge." A balanced decision involves thinking about what to do next first, and then acting. Your position is to act first, then think about what to do next. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam, and I completely agree with you that playing Heroes is much better than these forum squabbles.

My friend, today is the 90th day of the Maidan!!! How stupid do you have to be not to understand after three months that you need to leave??? Dad still believes that this is just a group of extremists and that the only option is for everyone to go home! Kyiv is paralyzed today, all the roads to the capital have been blocked with sand and concrete to prevent protesters from entering, and every other car is being searched. Is this how they fight extremism?
What are you trying to tell me? I don't understand...

Added 13 minutes later
Wicc
How can you not set it up... but who will then spread propaganda, form a bandit underground, sabotage the actions of the authorities, and put obstacles in their way? It is difficult to do this from across the ocean; a presence on the ground is needed.

The technology of the Orange Revolution is based on this:
- The media forms the desired point of view within the country and abroad
- the underground recruits and trains fighters and extras, mainly from people with the same mindset as Juristis
- the actions of the authorities to counter this process are sabotaged, both during preparation and in the hot phase

This scenario has been tested many times, including in 2004 in Ukraine. For this, yes, you need many agents of influence - at least in the media, in youth organizations, and in law enforcement.

But recently, they have learned how to fight it. It turns out that it is enough not to let the fleas crawl under your shirt, and the scenario begins to falter. And the key is the position of law enforcement agencies - if they are capable and loyal to the government, then the Maidans fail. This is how the Americans have failed in Kazakhstan, Belarus, and Russia in recent years.

And if you also put pressure on the media and various NGOs (which Putin is currently doing), then it becomes difficult even to prepare for a Maidan, and even more difficult to bring it to the hot phase.

Nothing new, it's all the same - "but I know how it's done..." Boring.
By the way, the Maidan in 2004 was a peaceful demonstration, a kind of democratic manifesto, nothing more. Ten years have passed, and now there are almost none of those who were there at that time. It's a different generation, but the same mentality in more complex circumstances. Please, no more about grand, well-thought-out scenarios, about roles, and so on. I'm really tired of the prophets.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#5705
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Piterius
What, for example? All you hear is "it will be this way because it always has been and always will be," "it needs to be this way because it was this way there and there, because that's how we do it, and you will only do it this way." I don't even read it anymore, even though I used to enjoy it.
You should ask "why" more often. I can provide quite detailed justifications for all my concepts, using historical examples and just plain common sense.

For example, try to ask yourself - why were all the states that, at different times, embodied democracy, maritime states?

Ancient Greece - sea on three sides, mountains to the north
Ancient Rome - sea on three sides, mountains to the north
England - an island
USA - sea on two sides, weak states to the north and south that pose no threat

And as you move further inland, democracy falters more and more, and periods of democracy in continental states are firmly linked to periods of turmoil or fragmentation.

Or, for example, why were all the states that, at different times, embodied democracy, predominantly aggressors on the international stage?

The list is the same - the periods of defensive wars and containment of strong opponents in the history of these countries are the least democratic.

These are quite simple questions; you just need to ask them.

Added 5 minutes ago
Piterius
Nothing new, it's all the same - "but I know how to do it..." Boring.
It's not new; these are all well-known things. For those who are interested in them. In fact, it is quite simple and logical.
By the way, the Maidan in 2004 was a peaceful demonstration, a kind of democratic manifesto, nothing more.
Can't you see that the Maidan in 2004 and the Maidan in 2014 were done according to the same plan, with minor changes?

I'm not talking about the reasons and motives, but about the perpetrators and the schemes of their actions.
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#5706
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I will post some of the values of democracy tomorrow, just for general knowledge, not to tell bedtime stories to children, but to reflect at leisure on who, where, and what they value, what they believe in, and what they profess. The current ruler will never give us that. I am curious if your ruler provides that for you.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#5707
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Piterius
Tomorrow I will post a part of the values of democracy, just for general knowledge, not to tell children bedtime stories, but to think at leisure about who, where, and what values, what they believe in, and what they profess.
And how do you suggest I respond to a post with a list of democratic values? Should I post the Ten Commandments? Or maybe the moral code of a communist builder? I'm not talking about who believes in what. This is a dead-end topic - some believe in Allah, others in Buddha, and they won't agree because there is no common criterion for evaluation. Therefore, I am talking about how this works in practice in the context of competition between states - which model is more competitive in specific political and economic conditions in a specific location on the globe. This approach is convenient because it means that political views are of little importance; what matters is only the result, which can be measured and verified.
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#5709
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Piterius
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPPxZl43u04
You asked for links – here you go. This channel shows what everyone else keeps silent about. Of course, it's done for money, a lot of money from foreign agents.
I was asking about those information channels that are blocked in Russia in order to prevent me from receiving truthful information about Ukraine.
(many people here say that we, Russians, are not shown "the truth").