Posts from "Necropolis" - changes to creatures of levels 6-7. Auto-translated

Crimson. I'm not talking about levels, but about the overall concept. The essence of zombies and knights is the same, but I believe that knights are much better designed.

What does this have to do with the point? The level of a Zombie does not equal the level of a Swordsman, so why should they have the same strength? You have Ghosts with a 50% chance to miss and the ability to fly; what are we supposed to do about that?

Necropolis units, with a few exceptions, are weaker than their counterparts in other cities, but this is more than compensated for by the necromantic abilities to create a huge number of troops. I don't consider zombies to be weak at all: when the enemy has a little over a hundred of the same furies or armored units, and you have a thousand zombies, they will definitely compete for the lead ;)

Zombies are generally the best unit in Necropolis.

Ah, yes, slow zombies with dragon stats and fast dragons with zombie stats. Everything is correct. And the level of creatures doesn't matter at all in Heroes.

Yes, level doesn't matter in Heroes.
Lower-level creatures are built earlier or (in the case of levels 1-2) additionally brought by heroes, and often by dwellings, so in the end, on a normal game timeline, a level 1 creature can easily outperform a level 7 creature in strength. How can you compare units of different levels based on their base growth rate if the number of growth rates for lower-level units in an army will be much greater.

In general, levels don't matter here; it's simply about comparing "all other things being equal," i.e., with equal Power for the unit. The catch is that the developers only take into account strength stats + initiative + some abilities in this parameter, but speed and most other abilities are not taken into account, so formally, a slow stack of zombies is as good as fast dancers, for example. But in reality, the advantage in speed is crucial, which is why all slow units suffer (except for those with strong uncounted abilities, like dwarven warriors, for example).

Added 9 minutes ago

Necropolis units, with a few exceptions, are weaker than their counterparts in other cities, which is more than compensated for by the necromantic abilities to create a huge number of troops. I don't think zombies are weak in any way: when the enemy has a little more than a hundred of the same furies or knights, and you have a thousand zombies, they will definitely compete for the top spot ;)

Uh-huh, with the following exceptions:
-skeletons
-ghosts
-vampires (alt)
-liches
-and in this mod, also levels 6-7
I.e., almost the entire army.

Added 9 minutes ago

I don't think zombies are weak in any way: when the enemy has a little more than a hundred of the same furies or knights, and you have a thousand zombies, they will definitely compete for the top spot ;)

You can say that about every unit. Wyverns are weak? Okay, okay, let me capture and build a couple of Strongholds, as well as a couple of external dwellings for wyverns, and my wyverns will "tear through" anything!

As for practice, raising zombies with necromancy makes sense only when the hero is Orson; under him, zombies play the way they should play without him. In all other cases, vampires, skeletons, and liches will be raised because they deliver on their Power, but zombies do not.

Added 18 minutes ago

Right now, that's the case. At least at the same level. The only exception is Furies, but there the growth rate in a long game is too small, so it evens out a little later.

As I already explained, the total strength of the growth rate in Heroes 5 is balanced by Power, which does not include speed. I.e., slow units are generally outsiders, and only strong abilities can compensate for this (which zombies don't have).

It's already well explained here why zombies are not well-designed. Here.

Well, that makes sense. At least zombies are indeed weaker than skeletons and vampires, although I would argue about ghosts. Ghosts are quite useful due to their abilities, and you can sometimes risk using them, but they are still not very strong. And what's the point of comparing units of the same faction among themselves, rather than with someone from outside? After all, troops always act together, and zombies work well with other units, being the most durable "meat" in the Necropolis, holding out until the very end in any battle. And regarding the argument about wyverns, it's artificial, because a Necromancer can easily achieve the number of zombies I mentioned, while it's not always possible to get a lot of wyverns, even if you really want to. I won't even mention that in some situations, pao can control the entire battle, and legends are told about this on this forum.
The only serious drawback that zombies and wyverns have in common is their limited usefulness when clearing neutral creatures... But every faction has such units, and they are not always slow.

And the argument about wyverns is also artificial, because it's not difficult for a necromancer to achieve the number of zombies I mentioned, while it's not always possible to get a large number of wyverns, even if you really want to.

As I already wrote, the necromancer won't raise zombies (it's simply not profitable), except in rare cases (Orson).
Having a unit just survive until the end of the battle is not the best role for slow units.

For example, in my mod, slow units represent their main combat force and threat, while fast flying units have more opportunities, but physically they are much weaker. It should be something like that; otherwise (if a slow unit has the same physical stats as a fast flying unit), the slow unit simply becomes a second-rate cannon fodder. By "flying units" I mean units with top speeds; in previous installments of the series, they all had the class ability "Flight." In Heroes 5, for some reason, even infantry can have top speeds, falling into the "flying unit" category even without that ability.

I won't even mention that pao-kai can sometimes dominate an entire battle, and legends are told about this on this forum.
The only serious drawback that zombies and wyverns have in common is their limited usefulness in clearing neutral creatures... But every castle has such units, and they are not always slow.

Wyverns are useful in clearing neutral creatures precisely because of their regeneration. In the final stages, they are of little use, which is indirectly indicated by the format of the RTA, where they are rarely bought.
Wyverns are weak because they lack the "Blood" trait, and the developers, when calculating their Power, accidentally or intentionally confused them with executioners in terms of large size (i.e., executioners are calculated as large, while wyverns are calculated as small).

As I mentioned before, a Necromancer won't raise zombies (it's simply not profitable), except in rare cases (Orson).

He doesn't need to raise them. Zombies have good growth, which is almost doubled with any secondary castle. And they hardly die in battles.

For example, in my mod, slow units represent their main combat force and threat.

You have a different concept, the concept of tanks. The original zombies have the concept of being cannon fodder. I won't judge which one is better; they are simply fundamentally different, both having the right to exist.

Wyverns are weak because they have no Blood + the developers, when calculating Power, accidentally or intentionally confused them with the Executioner line in terms of large size (i.e., Executioners are calculated as large, and Wyverns are calculated as small).

:D They took a shortcut.

He doesn't need to raise them. Zombies have good growth, which practically doubles with the presence of any secondary castle. And they hardly die in battles.

Well, it's clear that we're not evaluating a single unit (otherwise, we could conclude that assassins are the best at their level), but rather within the framework of Power growth per level. The Necropolis has the ability to double growth from any other castle at any level; in this regard, zombies don't become relatively better than other Necropolis units.

You have a different concept, the concept of tanks. The original zombies have the concept of cannon fodder. I'm not going to judge which is better; they are simply fundamentally different, both of which are viable.

Indeed. The concept of cannon fodder is precisely what leads to zombie hordes, which is what we're talking about. And here's the problem: mostly slow units are used as cannon fodder.

Added 23 minutes later

After all, troops always act together, and zombies work well with other units, being the thickest cannon fodder in the Necropolis, holding out until the very end in any battle.

As far as thickness goes, as I recall, ghosts are just as good, considering their incorporeality. They just take more damage from magic, which ignores incorporeality. The damage is roughly at the same level, and their speed and initiative are significantly higher. In general, ghosts are among the best at their tier (after elves and, possibly, bears), but they don't have a hero specializing in them, and they are often used as single units (the best for this role), being actively used as expendable units.

I played with a mod that we developed for longer than I actually used it a couple of times :D - I'm playing without it now because Necropolis became too strong - I originally designed it not to make it stronger, but to add variety and interest, improve the aesthetics, and offer an alternative way to play. Here's how it turned out:smile02:

Ah, this topic has been abandoned. :(
But I've been playing with champions for over a year, ever since a modder created an alt-upgrade. I also noticed them back in NCF. Of course, I have my own vision for a level 6-7 Necropolis unit.
So, without being too clever, I slightly increased the HP of all three undead units and added abilities from zombies of the corresponding level. And at level 7, I initially had dragons with increased incorporeality, which I replaced with these wonderful riders. True, they are not upgraded, but visually, in my opinion, they look more impressive than paladins, so it's logical that they are also stronger. ;)
Non-upgraded: 220 HP, 40-65 damage, curse.
Upgraded: black, not a caster, flies, has the Flash ability from the vampire upgrade, curse, death gaze, 275 HP (? I have increased HP on a lot of level 7 units, and not just level 7, so it's somewhat justified), 45-72 damage.
Purple: death strike, strike of sorrow, 265 HP, 38-80 damage - also a good unit.
True, I've increased the price - if you have such strong units at level 7, please pay accordingly for them.
P.S. It's a pity that there are no hazardous bucks for champions, to complete the picture.

I have an idea! Attach wings like those of angels to the Undead! But I can’t add new parts to them; when I try to add new parts to the effect, it stops working!!! What should I do?

Hello everyone... I recently started a new playthrough of Heroes of Might and Magic V: Tribes of the East (for the umpteenth time), and of course, I started with the Necromancer faction. After playing through a few missions, I was reminded of modding, where players modify the game to their liking. I downloaded the mod mentioned above because I was also tired of the weak dragons (relatively speaking)... So, let me get straight to the point... After looking at the modified units, I saw that the Necromancer's 7th-tier unit is now as strong as those of Humans, Mages, and Demons in terms of attack, hit points, and other characteristics. However, I also noticed the following: the weekly recruitment limit for these units remains at 3, just like it was for dragons before. Although the dragons had significantly weaker stats, their recruitment limit was 3 per week to maintain balance with other factions. I immediately imagined this scenario: I have 600 Banshees or Spectres, and the enemy has 400 7th-tier units. My units fly in, deal critical damage, and half of the enemy's army is wiped out. And if we consider the lower-tier units, they will take out even more without critical hits in a single attack. The enemy's 4th, 5th, and 6th-tier units might last a little longer, but not for long... I think the best option would be to make the weekly recruitment limit for these creatures 2, just like for all other factions. And, of course, to add some variety, you could do the following: Considering the notorious strength of Dark Knights and the modders' fondness for Necromancers... I'm starting to think that everything revolves around the same ideas, but the result is always the same. 1. Reduce the recruitment limit for 6th-tier units from 4 to 3, while increasing their stats by 25-30%. 2. I recently came across the concept of a Draugr in a book and online. It's a fairly powerful creature that would be suitable as a 5th or 6th-tier unit. 3. Mentioning the Draugr, it could be placed as an alternative (on the same tier) to the Death Knight (6th tier) or the Lich (5th tier), instead of having two identical units with almost the same stats and abilities. Although, it would be more suitable as a replacement for the Dark Knight than the Lich, who is more of a mage. The downside is that it would require a different model. I also saw a discussion about which ability to give to Undead units. In my opinion, no control abilities like Blindness or Berserk should be given to them, and their abilities should not be changed or modified at all, considering the effect that Berserk or Blindness can have. And would these creatures be so unholy as to have Unholy Word in their arsenal? That ability would be more suitable for creatures with magical inclinations, such as mages, shamans, and priests. Undead are melee fighters with a huge, devastating damage output, not spellcasters who strain their throats and wave their hands to cast spells. Or, if you want to make them the dark counterpart of angels, give them Raise Dead, and the Banshees can keep their Wail. Moreover, if we consider all the 7th-tier creatures, they don't have any outstanding abilities, but you're suggesting giving them an ability that can wipe out half or even the entire enemy army (the number of units is equal to 1-2 waves of reinforcements in the castle). However... if the enemy army is large, the damage from this ability will be insignificant because the death of a hundred or so warriors (out of an army of thousands) will not give a noticeable advantage, but rather a significant disadvantage when a 7th-tier unit uses its turn in vain.

After reading this thread from the beginning, you will understand why everything is done this way, including the increase – I don't support your idea, I'm sorry.

Regarding the winged undead, this could be developed as a basis for the faceless ones.