HeroesWorld
  • Log in
  • Create account
  • Mode
    Interface scale

Posts from DISCUSSIONS on “Rules for online games in HoMM3 and formulas for calculating player rating.”

Online Tournaments
5.0 (1 rating)
In reply to Aiwe
User Avatar
Offline Sanin
Registered:
Posts: 2,074
#1986
Auto-translated
Aiwe
It's clear that a mandatory chess timer can only be implemented in some tournaments organized by Vik for now. The community simply isn't ready for it yet.
For example, you criticize the timer, but you haven't even played with the timers presented by Vik, except maybe in m200. So, if you, like Maretti, decide that a chess timer is a good thing, but due to the lack of a reference point, you'll end up playing unlimited games with a time control like 18+8+4, which is exactly what Dirty said.

I played Anarchy 16 6 1, and the time ran out right in the middle of the battle. I didn't even have time to finish the battle, let alone take what I was fighting for, leaving it for my opponent.
I've played with Maretti twice with a 18 8 4 time control, and I'm perfectly happy with that timer.
ICQ 423164784

0
⚖️
0
User Avatar
Offline Juristis
Registered:
Posts: 1,423
#1987
Auto-translated
Yesterday, we played against 8mm6a with Maretti on an 18+8+2 map. By the end of the game, he had about 45 minutes, while I had an hour and a half, if not more.
heroes3.tv/juristis
ICQ - 488-784-621, skype - juristis18

Весна 2014.
0
⚖️
0
In reply to Juristis
Offline Maretti
Registered:
Posts: 1,260
#1988
Auto-translated
Juristis
Yesterday, we played against Maretti with 8mm6a on 18+8+2. By the end of the game, he had about 45 minutes, and I had an hour and a half, if not more.

But you are very fast. Must have been something like 4 min per turn most turns, not including battles.
0
⚖️
0
In reply to Juristis
User Avatar
Offline Vatya
Registered:
Posts: 987
#1989
Auto-translated
Juristis
Yesterday, we played against Maretti with 8mm6a on 18+8+2. By the end of the game, he had about 45 minutes left, while I had an hour and a half, if not more.
What difference does +2 or +1 make? Either way, it doesn't add to the time, but it allows for comfortable combat. This is more important in the first week when development is taking place; later on, it doesn't matter as much, but burning through the entire timer in the first week can be stressful later.
0
⚖️
0
Offline zoog
Registered:
Posts: 2,570
#1990
Auto-translated
Imagine for a moment a battle where there are 7 stacks of neutral creatures (speed 5), and 7 stacks of your own creatures with speeds ranging from 4 to 7. You divide your forces into 3 stacks: one pulls the top 2 stacks forward, one pulls the remaining stacks down, and another (with a high value/HP ratio) is placed next to the second stack, but slightly further away, just in case morale drops, to prevent everything from falling apart. The positioning is calculated based on 2- and 3-turn reach, and while top players do this on a reflex level, 85% of the others calculate everything during the battle, and rushing here only does harm, as it leads to mistakes and prevents them from working out their tactics, forcing less experienced players to avoid complex battles, which further reduces their skill level.
By the way, which faction were you playing, and what was the difficulty level?
0
⚖️
0
In reply to zoog
User Avatar
Offline Wicc
Registered:
Posts: 5,099
#1991
Auto-translated
zoog
Imagine a battle where neutral creatures (speed 5) are in 7 stacks, and your own creatures are in 7 stacks with speeds ranging from 4 to 7. You split your forces into three stacks: one pulls the top two stacks forward, one pulls the rest backward, and another (with a higher value/HP) is placed next to the second stack, but slightly further away, just in case morale drops, so that everything doesn't completely fall apart. The split is calculated based on 2- and 3-turn reach, and while top players do this on a reflex level, 85% of the others calculate everything during the battle, and rushing here only does harm because it leads to mistakes and prevents them from working out their tactics, forcing less experienced players to avoid complex battles, which further reduces their skill level.
By the way, what faction were you playing, and what difficulty level?
With this kind of argument, you can explain to anyone why they need to play at N+1 instead of N. Using the method of induction, you can conclude that you should play on unlimited turns. This conclusion is correct if you only consider the quality of the game. However, the timer is introduced not for the sake of game quality, but for the sake of optimal game duration. Therefore, please don't bring up arguments about game quality here – each timer has its own quality of game.
0
⚖️
0
Offline zoog
Registered:
Posts: 2,570
#1992
Auto-translated
Or is it an exaggeration, or perhaps a different level of perception of the battle? For me, it's simple: 3 seconds for a quick battle, 35-55 seconds for an easy battle where you only have time to defend and shoot, 1.5-2.5 minutes to kill a horde of zombies on level 11, and roughly 3-6 minutes to clear out monsters with 5+ speed and 6+ stacks. What you can do for longer, and more importantly, *how* you can do it, remains a mystery.
0
⚖️
0
In reply to zoog
User Avatar
Offline twaryna
Registered:
Posts: 2,156
#1993
Auto-translated
Battles lasting longer than 1 minute with the chess timer are an opportunity to exploit these battles to plan further actions on the map. At the same time, the longer the game progresses on the map, the more time it takes for experienced players. And this is no less (and often much more) important than battles with neutral creatures. If you want to think during a battle, spend time on the map.
http://heroes3.tv/twaryna
0
⚖️
0
Offline zoog
Registered:
Posts: 2,570
#1994
Auto-translated
twaryna, please note the time it took for Caitlin to defeat 14 archers and 42 pikemen (+a few other units) against 45 pikemen on grass. Save file: http://zoog2.narod.ru/misc/993.gm1
It took 40 seconds on autopilot and without morale protection. Remembering the timer when entering the battle, subtracting it before the last attack, and then _thinking_ about what to do in the remaining xx seconds – that's just crazy. IMHO.
0
⚖️
0
In reply to zoog
User Avatar
Offline Aiwe
Registered:
Posts: 1,330
#1995
Auto-translated
zoog
twaryna, please note the time it takes for Caitlin to defeat 14 archers and 42 pikemen (+a few single units) against 45 pikemen on grass. Save file: http://zoog2.narod.ru/misc/993.gm1
With automatic battles and no morale protection, it takes 40 seconds. Remembering the timer at the start of the battle, subtracting it before the last hit, and then _thinking_ about what to do in the remaining xx seconds – that's absurd. IMO.

It's absurd when the battle timer is 1 minute, but when it's 2 minutes, it's no longer absurd, which is what Twaryna is saying. Moreover, if the timer is 2 minutes, it's practically not spent on battles, as almost all battles, except for the most difficult ones, take less than 2 minutes, so it almost loses its meaning.
http://heroes3.tv/aiwe
0
⚖️
0
Offline zoog
Registered:
Posts: 2,570
#1996
Auto-translated
Aiwe, so, is 1 minute too short, and 2 minutes pointless? It's unclear...
1 minute is a playable timer, but only if the initial number is large and the first few days are fast; otherwise, there won't be enough time left (or enough time for turns) during moderately difficult battles.
Let's recalculate it together. Let's take 8mm6 - in the first week, a regular timer usually takes 6 minutes/day; 12 - already 8, and for some, even 10. Let's say there are 8 battles per day on day 11 and 16 on day 12 (this is close to the maximum, as far as I know). Let's say 40% of the battles are easy (00:40), 50% are medium (01:30), and 10% are difficult (03:00). Let's say the game lasts until day 141. 11+12+13 = 7x(6+8x0.5)+7(8+16x0.5)+7(8+16x0.5) = 294 minutes, which is 168+6+1 or 126+8+1. That is, the actual action gameplay won't fit within the proposed limits.
[off]I'll repeat, the opinions of top players on this issue here are not entirely adequate for the general rules.[/off]
0
⚖️
0
In reply to zoog
User Avatar
Offline twaryna
Registered:
Posts: 2,156
#1997
Auto-translated
I repeat, a 1-minute battle timer doesn't allow you to linger in battles and plan further actions on the map. With a 2-minute timer, it's much easier to do this because there are many simple battles that take less than a minute. This shouldn't be the case – it undermines the purpose of the chess timer. As for 4 minutes per battle – that's just absurd. If there isn't enough time for battles, you need to increase the first two timer values, but definitely not the third. P.S. In War of the Titans, they play without a third timer value, without a separate time for battles, and everything is fine. Yes, the timers are initially longer there, and everything happens faster due to the mod's features, but nevertheless.
http://heroes3.tv/twaryna
0
⚖️
0
In reply to zoog
User Avatar
Offline Aiwe
Registered:
Posts: 1,330
#1998
Auto-translated
zoog
Aiwe, so, 1 minute is too short, and 2 minutes is pointless? I don't understand...
1 minute is a playable timer, but only if the initial number is large and the early days are fast; otherwise, there won't be enough time left (or enough time for turns) in moderately difficult battles.
Let's recalculate it together. Let's take 8mm6 - in the first week, a standard timer usually takes 6 minutes/day; 12 - already 8, and for some, even 10. Let's say there are 8 battles per day on 11 and 16 - on 12 (this is close to the maximum, as far as I know). Let's say 40% of the battles are easy (00:40), 50% are medium (01:30), and 10% are difficult (03:00). Let's say the game lasts until 141. 11+12+13 = 7x(6+8x0.5)+7(8+16x0.5)+7(8+16x0.5) = 294 minutes, which is 168+6+1 or 126+8+1. That is, the actual action gameplay won't fit into the proposed timeframe.
[off]I repeat, the opinions of top players on this issue here are not entirely adequate for the general rules.[/off]

If the timer is set to 1 minute, and a battle takes 40 seconds, then spending those 20 seconds specifically thinking about what to do on the map is absurd; with 2 minutes, you have 1-20 seconds left, which means you can easily spend a minute thinking - that's what I meant.

I didn't even read the calculations - try playing 30+8+1 on HL+U, and you'll have enough time for everything, even with a large number of not-so-fast battles, if you don't waste time, of course :D
http://heroes3.tv/aiwe
0
⚖️
0
Offline zoog
Registered:
Posts: 2,570
#1999
Auto-translated
twaryna, well, show me where I made a mistake in the calculations then.
0
⚖️
0
In reply to zoog
User Avatar
Offline twaryna
Registered:
Posts: 2,156
#2000
Auto-translated
zoog
twaryna, then show me where I made a mistake in the calculations.

What calculations? You read about "126+8+1" and your hand goes to your face. It feels like a bunch of armchair strategists and game theorists have gathered again. Have you actually played on a short timer at all? If so, I usually play on a regular timer and I'm not the fastest player. But reading this just puts me in a stupor.
http://heroes3.tv/twaryna
0
⚖️
0