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Posts from Let's talk about our Red Rush strategy...

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Closed
Ban or allow Red Rush:
54 voters
Multiple choice Public votes Closed 2013-09-20
This poll is closed.
allow on XL+U templates
50% 27 votes
Leave the ban on XL+U templates in place
50% 27 votes
allow on the Diamond template
25.9% 14 votes
leave the ban on the Diamond template
55.6% 30 votes
allow on the Mini-Nostalgia template
27.8% 15 votes
leave the restriction on the Mini-Nostalgia template
53.7% 29 votes
In reply to R55Max
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13 years ago
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R55Max
I don't have time to play so many games, let alone participate in tournaments. 10 games is not enough to draw conclusions; you need a much larger sample size. I'm not talking about that. If, out of your 10 losses (let's say you lost 10 games to different players over some time), 2 losses occur when the red rush rule is in effect and it seems to be giving red an advantage, then that would be a clear indicator that the rule has a significant impact. This rule doesn't necessarily have to guarantee a 100% win in the final battle. The influence can be indirect and affect various aspects of the game, ultimately leading to a loss. There can be a huge number of such factors, and in a lost game, you can always find them for the red player (especially in drawn-out games on HotA+U). Besides, it's quite easy to play against the rule itself. You can simply play a final battle with 127 units and lose to blue, and then say, "Well, there was no red rush." The point is not about who wins, but about the influence of red rush in favor of red. A higher-skilled player may win even without noticing this rule, but in a game between equally skilled players, it will still have some impact. If you really want to test the rule, play as blue against everyone and allow red rush for all your opponents. In SOD. And then, when you have about 30 losses, analyze them.

So, how can you so confidently claim that red rush should be banned on HotA+U if you don't have the time and experience to back it up?
Do you need statistics? Okay. I have played over 200 games on HotA+U on SOD (not even on WOG) with red rush allowed. And, to be honest, I don't remember any games where red rush was overpowered and decisive. As for the opponents, all the games were against equally skilled players.
I don't want to offend anyone; I just think that to judge what is needed and what is not, you need experience and some understanding of what is critical in the game and what is not.
Red rush on HotA+U is NOT CRITICAL.
In reply to Grando
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13 years ago
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I ask all readers to note that the opinions of Vik, Predsa, and Stinger are nonsense.

After all, Dima Surmai and R55max have a clearer, more accurate, precise, and well-founded understanding of what Redrash is in HL templates.
In reply to Grando
13 years ago
It may not be critical on xl + Us, but why not have the rule for the few times where it does matter?

If we are looking for as simple rules as possible I think its best to have the same rules for all templates in generel. And on templates like balance, panic, 2sm4d(3) it is important to bann red rush.
In reply to Grando
13 years ago
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PReDS

10 games on small maps, you're always red, and you win with RR 2-3 times, then I'll agree.

How many games out of 10 will you lose if RR isn't banned? Surely more than one? Then I'll agree (if you're not deliberately doing it).

Added after 45 minutes
Lider1
I ask everyone reading to note that Vik, Predsa, and Stinger's opinions are nonsense.

After all, Dima Surmai and R55max have a clearer, more accurate, precise, and well-founded understanding of what Redraw is on HL templates.

Let's look at Predsa's answer to the question of how many games he will lose if RR is banned.
Stinger believes that it's not critical on HL, which means that there is some influence on HL, and it's critical on other templates. Vik seems to think so too.
If the goal is to simplify the rules, then banning it on half of the templates and allowing it on others will only complicate things.
In reply to Grando
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13 years ago
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What will he make more complicated there? Currently, different rules are used for different map templates. For example, on XL+U, you can run past the shifted guards and use 2 Double Damage spells.
In reply to Grando
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13 years ago
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Maybe it would be simpler to just leave the ban on Resource Production (RR) everywhere and not worry about it? It's effective and very powerful on medium maps and skirmishes. On high-level (HL) maps, it can work on turn 131 – allowing you to kill with a growth bonus, or if you have 10 cities with full buying, you can kill someone in the main city (if you're a Necromancer, that's +500 bones, not counting the rest of the army). Out of 200 games with RR, no one complained? Well, that's because it was allowed. Otherwise, I would at least have +10-20 games on HL+Ultra maps where I could simply kill my opponent on turn 2 with a full buy in the city.
13 years ago
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Wicc
What is he going to complicate there?

Currently, different rules are used for different templates. For example, on XL+U you can run past a displaced guard and use 2DD.

exactly, after playing many games on XL, I made 2DD on Smk, someone made 2DD on Jebus Cross, of course all unintentionally.
In reply to Dima Surmay
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13 years ago
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Sevensan
Wouldn't it be easier to just leave the Resource Production (RP) ban in place everywhere and not worry about it? It's effective and very powerful on medium maps and skirmishes. On huge maps, it might work if you have 10 cities with full resource purchases – you kill someone in your main city (if you're a Necromancer, that's +500 bones, not counting other resources). Out of 200 games with RP, no one complained, right? Well, that's because it was allowed. At the very least, I would have +10-20 wins on Huge maps where I could simply kill my opponent with 2*7 units with full resource purchases in the city.
It seems this simple truth is not being seen.

For all players, in any case, with RP allowed, the win rate will increase thanks to it; it can't be so insignificant that it can be ignored. The benefits of blue don't outweigh the RP rule, and for that reason alone, it shouldn't be allowed, as it strengthens red.

For the sake of interest, it could be allowed for a couple of seasons, just to ban it permanently after a while. :)
In reply to R55Max
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13 years ago
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R55Max


Just for fun, you could allow Ranked Play for a couple of seasons, and then ban it permanently after a while. :)
said, as if cutting it off: learn, damn it!

And here, noobs were playing:
Wicc
You're probably still a complete newbie in Heroes, you don't know the history. :)

They played without Ranked Rush:

1) Chaos League tournaments, these were the strongest tournaments of that time (~2000-~2006)

2) All tournaments on Battle.net (2006-2012), excluding games on the CM (Custom Map), including the RP (Ranked Play) series, this was the strongest tournament cycle at that time (2008-2010).

3) All CIS Championships (2010-2013), excluding games on the CM, these are the strongest tournaments of the present.

And many other minor things.

...
who, after 10 years, still didn't understand the main thing.
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13 years ago
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As usual, zero substantive response. In principle, I figured you would, as usual, shift the conversation to a personal level.

So what if there have been tournaments before? The RR rule was adopted on HeroesWorld before me; I merely agree with it and support it with my own views on the situation. It was probably discussed in some way, including, I think, taking into account the history of past tournaments, and if you treat your interlocutors with such disrespect (and on any topic you're approached about), then by your logic, the people who adopted this rule must be the same way.

This is a discussion of the rule, theorizing! Try to counter others' arguments with normal words, with reasoning and without mockery, and preferably respond to everything, if your goal is indeed to discuss RR and not just heavy trolling — that way we'll get much further in the discussion.

Essentially, the discussion can be reduced to the following points:
1. RR is banned. Which color is more advantageous to play, who wins more often? Based on the results analyzed by Pit (if I'm not mistaken), the statistics between colors are roughly equal.

2. RR is allowed. Which faction is more advantageous to play? I certainly can't provide statistics, but in my opinion, red will become stronger — isn't that obvious...

To AK:

It would be interesting to look at past discussions of the RR rule, if there were any on this forum, and also on other resources if there's info, I'd be interested to read it, and maybe there are some votes as well?
In reply to R55Max
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13 years ago
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R55Max
Here we have a discussion of the rule, theorizing!
The thing is, on your part it’s pure theorizing, through which you can pour tons of water in favor of either side and prove nothing. Vic, however, refers to many years of experience participating in and hosting Tournaments on the templates being discussed. The principle: "The criterion of truth is practice" — he didn’t invent it.

In this regard, Dima’s argument:
Dima Surmay
that’s right, after playing many games on HL, I made a 2DD on SMK, someone on Jebus Cross made a 2DD, of course it wasn’t intentional.
— that universal rules are far more convenient for players carries much more weight. It’s just that the gameplay on different templates differs significantly and therefore requires additions to the rules: when the first experimental tournament on 8mm6 was held on HP, it was never finished; without practice, people tried to play as on SMK, and as a result, games almost never ended before week 6 — the participants simply didn’t have enough patience.

Well, regarding the pearl:
Sevensan
Maybe it’s easier to just keep the ban on RR everywhere and not worry? On M maps and SMKs it rolls and rolls heavily. On HL it might roll on 131 — kill with growth, or if you have 10 towns with full buyout, — you kill someone in the main (if you’re a necro, that’s +500 bones for example, not counting the rest of the machine). ...
— when playing with control in any of the 7 days, the red player risks being attacked without mana, which, usually, is more important than weekly growth, and is forced to take that into account in their actions.
In reply to PReDS
13 years ago
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PReDS

- when playing with control, on any of the 7 days, red risks being attacked without mana, which is usually more important than the weekly increase, and must take this into account in its actions.

But it's still a question of what is more important for whom.

Maybe someone can organize a poll to see which color people prefer. If most people prefer red, then strengthening red would be an overcorrection. But if blue wins, then we can start thinking about how to strengthen red. That is, the discussion can continue.
In reply to Dima Surmay
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13 years ago
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5 cents:
A game without a rrash (written into the rules) has already firmly lodged in the mind as a forbidden action, and while recently playing Anarchy in OFB, I re-read the rules a couple of times to avoid missing the chance to use that imba (or semi-imba) which is banned, but I would mechanically wait for a new growth in order to retake an artifact that could have simply been stolen =)
One can recall a couple of games (SMKA templates, Balance) where day 131 came, and you still made up a couple more actions for that day at your respawn, because red rush, after all... Although who knows what would have happened if I had just run and rushed... but losing a match because of some killed enemy roach that you attacked with growth is somehow not great (and such situations did happen, but opponents allowed a replay without a rrash... I think something similar recently happened in Amil's game, I believe...
Or you get creative: in a game with Cobra, I hit GO with growth, ran up to the opponent's Castle, gave the growth to a scout hero, took the half-empty Castle, then the scout hero passed the growth back =)
In view of all this, I don't even know what to say — it seems like an imba on Mks and Lks, but sometimes this rrash perverts the game itself... And overall, everyone is used to the rules, but they are like a collection of laws that deputies constantly amend, thereby perfecting them =)
In reply to Dima Surmay
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13 years ago
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Universal rules are a good thing, and there's no point in arguing about it. But I'll try again to explain why RR shouldn't be banned specifically for HL+U. Vik already wrote that for many years, other sites played without banning RR, and there were no complaints about it. On HotA, as I understand it, people started playing HL+U relatively recently, and until now, they mainly played L or L+U maps, where RR is indeed critical. In most games on these templates (taking the skirmish map as an example), the gameplay boils down to resource grabbing, controlling the entire map, and Fortress battles. But now, let's go back to the HL+U template. The template is large, and this approach (like on the skirmish map - controlling the entire map) takes a very long time. I won't make unsubstantiated claims, but I'll say that in Chaos League, on the bay, and in the CIS tournaments listed by Vik, games usually ended in the 3rd or 4th week! I won't even give examples of games on the Warlords template, where the game often ends at the end of the 2nd week. And this is definitely not due to the allowed RR. There just wasn't this habit of "mosh-farming," and those who did mosh-farm were killed right at their spawn point. What is happening now on HotA (I'm judging again by streams and reports)? Games end on average in the 2nd month! In many ways, this is because the blue player is calm - they won't be harassed at the beginning of the week, so they can calmly buy their army and run around for another week. And the red player, if they see that they won't be able to take the blue player's castle by the 7th day, also doesn't rush to attack. As a result, we have an artificial prolongation of games due to the essentially un обоснованного ban on RR on HL+U. All these theoretical justifications, such as: full purchase + mana vortex at the beginning of the week with RR, in my opinion, are a typical "skirmish player's mindset" and a reluctance to think more broadly and play more aggressively, instead of the usual mosh-farming.

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