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Posts from Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments.

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In reply to Oelm
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Offline Qwerty
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#777
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In my opinion, it makes sense to consider holding tournaments where analyzing adjourned games is allowed.
An example from practice: we were playing, and as usual, we adjourned the game. I struggled with it for 2 weeks, then I revealed the continuation. Two weeks later, I accidentally found out that my opponent not only revealed the continuation but also played it with a second person. Later, I found out that he had done this before. And I also revealed my continuation later.
Then we switched to M-U – there are no adjournments, and there are no questions.
Adjourning a game and not analyzing it is strange and incomprehensible. The opponent was streaming – I watched his stream before resuming the game, and no one will ever be able to prove anything. I can also watch my own stream. So, it makes sense to consider a "Dutch" tournament, in my opinion...

Орден Феникса – харизматический :) лидер
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In reply to Gomunguls
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Offline Captain
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#778
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Gomunguls
Oelm))), nobody cares about your inner world)))- learn to play and cook))))))
mollusks :)))

And in general, I don't understand, NumVan, why this clown hasn't been banned yet? He's annoying here and in other threads with his long posts.
Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.
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Offline Gomunguls
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#779
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Qwerty
In my opinion, it makes sense to consider holding tournaments where analyzing adjourned games is allowed.
An example from practice: we were playing, and we adjourned the game as usual. I struggled with it for 2 weeks, and then I revealed the moves. Two weeks later, I accidentally found out that my opponent not only revealed the moves but also played the game with a second person. Then I found out that he had revealed games before. And I revealed games later.
Then we switched to M-U – there are no adjournments, and there are no questions.
Adjourning a game and not analyzing it is strange and incomprehensible. The opponent was streaming – I watched his stream before finishing the game, and no one will ever be able to prove anything. I can also watch my own stream. So, in my opinion, it makes sense to consider a "Dutch" tournament...

My opinion is that tournaments should only be held on the password-protected version, and now it makes sense because it is completely ready!! And in all tournaments, there should be a rule that everyone should have such a version before the game, and then there will be no unnecessary problems!
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWlnXU5R5RLCMuWzIpBc65Q
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Offline twaryna
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#780
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Gomunguls
My opinion is that tournaments should only be held on a password-protected version, now that it makes sense since it's almost ready! And all tournaments should include a rule that everyone must have this version before the game starts; then there will be fewer problems!

Unfortunately, the "password-protected version" is not quite ready. The main factor that personally repels me from password-protected saves at the moment is the inability to save the game if one of the players crashes (the game offers to save, but it doesn't actually work). When this is fixed, then it should definitely be mandatory for everyone to use the latest HD+ mod and play with password-protected saves. Right now, it causes more inconvenience than benefit. IMHO.
http://heroes3.tv/twaryna
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Offline Gomunguls
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#781
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twaryna
Unfortunately, the "corrupted version" is not quite ready. The main factor that personally repulses me from corrupted saves at the moment is the inability to save the game when one of the players disconnects (the game offers to save, but it doesn't actually work). When this is fixed, then we should definitely get everyone to use the latest HD+ mod and play with corrupted saves. Right now, it causes more inconvenience than benefit. IMHO.

I agree, that's annoying! But you can replay after a crash on autosave, and no one will join your game! But without a password, it's worse.
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWlnXU5R5RLCMuWzIpBc65Q
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Offline twaryna
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#782
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Gomunguls
I agree, it's annoying! But you can replay the turn on autosave, and they won't be able to join your game! It's just worse without a password.

Besides being unpleasant and sometimes wasting extra time and nerves, it also creates new reasons for theoretically unfair play and "suspicion."

A simple example: during an opponent's turn, the connection is lost, and they can't finish their turn or save it. They have to redo the turn. Accordingly, if "something went wrong" on your turn, you can pull the plug and redo it – this joke takes on real meaning. Moreover, as far as I understand, there is no mention or practice of "completely replaying turns" in the Heroes 3 community.
http://heroes3.tv/twaryna
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Offline numOne
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#783
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twaryna
Besides being unpleasant and sometimes wasting extra time and nerves, it also provides new reasons for theoretically unfair play and "suspicion."

A simple example: during an opponent's turn, the connection breaks, and they can't complete their turn or save it. You have to redo the turn. Accordingly, if "something went wrong" during your turn, just unplug the power cord and redo the turn – this joke takes on real meaning. Moreover, as far as I understand, there is no mention or practice of "completely replaying turns" in the Heroes 3 community.

But couldn't you do the same thing without password-protected saves, simply by restarting the computer and saying that the power went out, for example?
Пусть мой враг будет силен и страшен. Если я поборю его, то не буду чувствовать стыда.
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Offline twaryna
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#784
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numOne
Couldn't you achieve the same result without password-protected saves, by simply restarting the computer and saying that the power went out, for example?

If the "power went out," then, of course, you can. But that doesn't happen very often. However, crashes due to various reasons occur quite regularly. Moreover, after a crash, it's not always clear who was affected. Even if it was you, you might have been able to continue and save. But here, there will always be a repetition of the turn.
http://heroes3.tv/twaryna
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Offline Егор Коробейников
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#785
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twaryna

A simple example: during an opponent's turn, the connection is lost, they can't complete their move, and they can't save either.
The situation is identical for Soda and HD+. The data won't be transmitted to the second player, or it will be transmitted incorrectly (the computer will play for the first player who disconnected), and they will inevitably be outplayed.
You weren't kicked out of the game, you were disconnected. The issue is understood, and we need to find a solution.
icq - 470286448
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In reply to Егор Коробейников
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Offline twaryna
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#786
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Yegor Korobeynikov
Well, for Soda and HD+, the situation is identical. The data won't be transmitted to the second player, or it will be transmitted incorrectly (the computer will act as if it's the first player who pulled the plug), and in any case, the second player will lose.

These are completely different situations. Without corrupted saves, you can save the game if it crashes. With corrupted saves, you can't. Why this is critical in my opinion, I wrote above.
http://heroes3.tv/twaryna
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In reply to twaryna
Offline Егор Коробейников
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#787
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twaryna
Completely different situations. Without corrupted saves, you can save the game when it crashes. With corrupted saves, you can't. Why this is critical in my opinion, I wrote above.
Yes, I understand. Two players are playing, and one of them gets disconnected. One sees that the other player has crashed, and the other sees that the first player has crashed. One simply ends their turn, saves, and loads. As a result, there was a disconnect. There was nothing to redo... What bothers me more is that the game has started crashing more often, and a crash during the final battle is a real problem...
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In reply to Oelm
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Offline Pit for LM
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#788
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1. Regarding the editing and clarification of rules. I am constantly working on this. The rules are extensive. It is impossible to account for all nuances, accuracy of wording, possible interpretations, and game situations. Life always throws something new into the mix. The HP Rules were used as a basis. Over the past 5 years, they have been revised several times. The latest version is quite correct; questions and controversial situations arise infrequently (1-2 per month in those tournaments where I am a judge, and before version 2 of the rules appeared, there were disputes 2-3 times a week). I maintain close contact with other judges; we discuss difficult situations together – sometimes two or three people participate in the discussion, and sometimes even 6-7. After resolving a dispute, I IMMEDIATELY make amendments and clarifications to the rules, in consultation with other judges, so that similar issues do not arise again. This is a normal work process.

2. Rule prohibiting opening save files. The current formulation covers all cases - it is forbidden to open them - by anyone and under no circumstances, except for judges... in a disputed situation. This point has already been discussed many times. Judges have always interpreted it unambiguously. (I can provide some examples: a player did not show up for a replay for a long time; his opponent opened the save file, awarded himself the victory, and posted a report... Another example: a Новичок was interested in where his opponent got his heroes from if there were no resource nodes on the map, and he opened the game...). The vast majority of players felt that the wording was clear. In particular, about a year ago, directly said the Tournament Coordinator and Judge:
Dirty_Player
What are you talking about? Opening an unfinished match's save file is unacceptable!!! And it doesn't matter under what pretext.
, and you, Oelm, knew this perfectly well.
Back then, I wanted to make clarifications to this point in the rules, but both on the forum and in personal conversations with the judges, players said that this was unnecessary and already understandable. Therefore, I decided not to change anything.
Oelm’s situation was judged according to existing rules; no changes were made before this moment; the issue is closed.
Yes, after the post:
KobRa_RR
It should be stated in the rules on all resources as a separate line that loading a save without an opponent is prohibited, and moving without an opponent should also be prohibited, so as not to tempt anyone. It is normal for the opponent to give 3-5-10 minutes to remember the position and plans for the game before replaying.
, I suggested making clarifications to the rules.
If a similar situation arises today or tomorrow (until there are changes), the AC will again proceed from this formulation:
No one has the right to open the saves of an unfinished match except for the judge/tournament leader or a member of the AC, and only when a controversial situation arises in the match.
But even if there are only 2-3 players on the forum for whom the current wording is unclear, then, apparently, it needs to be changed so that there is unambiguous understanding. And if we are going to do this, we need to do it immediately, while something like this does not happen again, and the current situation is not forgotten. When else would we do it, in half a year?
/Personally, I believe that this is unnecessary. For me, it is obvious that you cannot open saves of a postponed match, even to refresh your memory, let alone to think things over, let alone scout, let alone reveal the entire map... all this gives an advantage in the game. Our tournaments are online; our rules are for online games; most matches are played with a time limit. Ideally, it is better not to postpone at all. In difficult situations, sometimes you panic and start making mistakes, which further complicates your position; this is online, and this is the dynamism and drama of our game. Here, postponing helps the losing player: calming down and thinking (with good memory, you can think without opening save files) is always helpful. You can draw a parallel with tennis when a match is interrupted due to rain, and then the loser manages to turn the tide./
In any case, we judges will think about whether or not it is necessary, and if we change the wording, how.

3. This situation - a dispute in the twaryna vs Oelm match. The essence is that twaryna believes, based on the Rules, that it is impossible to open save files, while Oelm believes that it is possible. Since the dispute concerns the fair play clause (violations of other rules are punished with a technical defeat, and penalties for unfair play are much more severe), the matter was considered by the AC. Based on the presented facts, there was clearly an instance of opening saves from a postponed match; this fact was acknowledged by Oelm; in the rules, this violation is classified as a violation of the fair play rule; therefore, the judges made a decision in favor of twaryna.

Interestingly, Lizard B, in the tournament where Oelm is currently playing, also seems to believe that save files should not be opened:
Lizard B
I would not impose any penalty sanctions beyond a tech loss in a specific game for something like this.
But here's what we have:
Oelm
I always looked at saves in single-player mode in 90% of matches before this.
Moreover, sometimes I allowed myself to consult about saves with someone else or discuss plans.
So, logically, Lizard B should give tech losses in 90% of Oelm’s games.

4. Regarding this topic and Oelm’s posts in it. According to the AC’s decision, player Oelm should receive 50 points for violating tournament rules. Since as a result of this, Oelm will automatically be banned for the third time, we postponed this punishment so that he has the opportunity to express himself in his defense. In reality, Oelm confirmed repeated opening of save files from unfinished matches. There is no point in waiting further, especially since the user’s posts violate other forum rules. Therefore, I assigned the points. In a week, Oelm will be unbanned and can continue.
From the forum rules:
1. When 100 violation points are accumulated, the user account is automatically blocked by the system
2. A week after the user's account was blocked, 5 violation points are deducted, and the user's account is automatically unlocked
3. The fourth blocking of the user's account is final; after that, the account will not be unlocked anymore.
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In reply to Oelm
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Offline Marmot
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#789
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In my opinion, there is still one rational point in Oelm’s statements. After thinking about it, I decided to make a suggestion – in the thread on the HD mod, because this could be implemented specifically in that mod.
Воскресайте, камінні душі, Розчиняйте серця і чоло, Щоб не сказали Про вас грядущі: їх на землі не було…
(Василь Симоненко. Люди – прекрасні)
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In reply to Oelm
Offline Maretti
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#790
I only see one purpose for having a time limit in H3 and that is to avoid wasting (your opponents) time. H3 is not a real time game. Therefore I dont believe you get an unfair advantage by loading a game in single player to look at your situation as long as you only look and dont play on. You should be able to think things through as much as you want as long as you are not wasting your opponents time, which is not the case if you load the game in single player.

Luckily we can avoid this issue in the future since we can now play with protected saves, where it is not possible to load the game in single player.
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