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Posts from Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments. Auto-translated

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In reply to Oelm
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#715
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To Oelm
Rule:
No one, except the judge/tournament organizer or a member of the Arbitration Committee, is allowed to open save files of an unfinished game, and only in the event of a controversial situation in the game. If, at the moment a controversial situation arises that requires opening save files, there is no communication with the judge/organizer/Arbitration Committee, the game must be interrupted and saved by both participants until contact with the judges is established.
Message from Oelm:
Well, for starters... This rule does not state that save files cannot be loaded during a pause. At least, because the second sentence indirectly contains an explanation of the content - why would anyone need to "load a save" in a controversial situation. Naturally, the judge will open the save from both sides, possibly the map, and based on this, make a decision in the controversial situation. I do not see here any indication that loading a save in single-player is impossible.
There is a period between the sentences in the rules. Opening (loading) is NOT ALLOWED!!! The REASONS are not IMPORTANT, as you have already agreed to play according to the established rules.
Message from NumOne:
Well, well, now you're waiting for something from the Arbitration Committee, sitting back instead of defending yourself when there was a reason and opportunity to do so.
We do not have a rule limiting when you can or cannot defend yourself. And there is always time for a sober assessment of the situation for both defense and accusation.
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
In reply to R55Max
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#716
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R55Max

We don't have any rules limiting when one can or cannot defend themselves. And there is always time for a sober assessment of the situation, allowing for defense and accusation.

Pff... you clearly aren't fully aware of what happened. During the stream, they were discussing this with the player in question (there are logs from their ICQ conversation), and the player directly asked him to send those save files (seen when Oelm loaded the saves). If Oelm had immediately slapped himself on the forehead, saying, "Oh, how awkward," and instantly sent them, and nothing suspicious had been found, the issue would have been resolved with a 90% probability. But (!) he went offline (his health suddenly deteriorated), which cast a specific shadow over him. And he only reappeared a significant time later. Any honest player would never allow themselves to do that, and if they did, they would have been ashamed and their excuses would have sounded completely different.
Пусть мой враг будет силен и страшен. Если я поборю его, то не буду чувствовать стыда.
In reply to numOne
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#717
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numOne
Pff... you clearly don't know what's going on. During the stream, they were discussing this with the player in question (there are logs from their ICQ conversation), and the player directly asked him to send those save files (the ones seen when loading Oelm's saves). If Oelm had immediately slapped himself on the forehead, saying, "Oh, how awkward," and instantly sent them, and if nothing suspicious had been found, the issue would have resolved itself with a 90% probability. But (!) he went offline (his health suddenly deteriorated), which cast a specific shadow on him. And he only reappeared after a significant amount of time. Any honest player would never allow themselves to do that, or they would be ashamed and burn with shame, and their excuses would sound completely different.
This is an example of how investigations should be more transparent (and, by the way, if you label any player with a blacklist, which is visible to everyone, then you must make absolutely all decisions with an open discussion of the circumstances!)
Even criminal cases are available online for users.

I read that Oelm "supposedly left," but that's not proof of guilt, right? And he's not obligated to react immediately. I'm not defending him; I'm looking at it from a legal perspective.

To be clear, I trust you more than him, but this only confirms my point that I
currently see (in the absence of a review of the events) a lack of objectivity.
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
In reply to Oelm
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#718
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I believe that in games with turn-based gameplay, analyzing save files should be completely allowed, including playing against a computer opponent or another player, and any kind of reconnaissance. Those who don't like it can play with standard, pre-defined settings.

Орден Фениксахаризматический :) лидер
In reply to R55Max
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#719
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R55Max
This is an example of how investigations should be more transparent (and by the way, if you assign a black list label to any player, which serves as an indicator for everyone, then you must make absolutely all decisions with an open discussion of the circumstances!)
Even criminal cases are available online for users.

I read that Oelm "supposedly left," but isn't that proof of guilt?< And he doesn't have to react immediately. I'm not defending him; I'm looking at it from a legal perspective.

To clarify, I trust and believe you more than him, but this only confirms my statement that I currently see (in the absence of detailed analysis) bias.

Well, I tried to explain the main points in simple terms, here.

The blacklist is not a death sentence; you can always appeal the decision, and if there are valid reasons, we will remove the player from it – we will remove them. So far, I haven’t seen even close to those grounds.

And in general, certain changes in the approach to determining fair and unfair play should occur soon. Fortunately, corrupted saves have been used stably for a long time, plus, as I think, we need to somehow regulate transactions and all abuses that may arise from them.

Once again, neither I nor anyone else on the AC enjoys such disputes; we advocate for an objective consideration of any issues, but if a player takes a defiant stance, disappears at the most inappropriate moment, and refuses to engage in dialogue when they need to, then this only worsens their situation, as Vic said.
Пусть мой враг будет силен и страшен. Если я поборю его, то не буду чувствовать стыда.
In reply to Oelm
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#720
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In general, certain changes in the approach to defining fair and unfair gameplay should occur in the near future. Fortunately, corrupted save files have been used consistently for a long time, and, as I believe, it will be necessary to somehow regulate the use of trainers and all the abuses that may result from them.
Changes are necessary and should be addressed, certainly not in closed circles or within a week of open voting.
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
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#721
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It’s a shame that even players who are capable of winning against anyone resort to this kind of thing, and the medal under their avatar or something else tempts them to take the path of a loser:mad:
We remember, we mourn, and maybe we’ll forgive:smile43:


ICQ (559716573)

Стримы
http://ru.twitch.tv/romariogrom/videos?kind=past_broadcasts
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#722
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The blue player, who clearly wasn't a nice guy, dumped about 10 units of dirt.
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
In reply to numOne
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#723
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numOne
Details:
Oelm was caught red-handed loading saves without an opponent present during a turn delay. This happened in a tournament match against "Twaryna" in the "Only HL" format.

P.S. Use password-protected saves, everyone, and sleep soundly!
And what did I say? Two people I KNEW were cheating.
One, Oelm, thankfully, was caught.
Now we just need to punish the other one...

Regarding password-protected saves, Num, that's not a definitive solution – it's still possible to cheat, it's just that not everyone can do it. For example, I think "Britvochka" could figure it out.
Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.
In reply to Captain
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#724
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Captain
And what did I say? There are two people I KNOW for sure are cheating.
One of them, Oelma, thankfully, was caught.
Now we just need to punish the other one...

As for the corrupted saves, Num, that's not a definitive solution – it's still possible to cheat, it's just not something everyone can do. For example, I think Britvochka could figure it out.

Indru was caught, and I'm wondering where the gloating captain is?:D I don't think Indru is a cheater in the grand scheme of things; I don't rule out the possibility that this is his first time.

P.S. And who's to blame? Of course, the captain, he's the one who kept egging him on!
And what did I say? There are two people I KNOW for sure are cheating... For example, Britvochka...
Will you bet your tooth and your left kidney? :rolleyes:
ICQ 245338291
Ник в лоби - Kilgory
In reply to numOne
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#725
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numOne
Details:
Oelm was caught red-handed loading saves without his opponent present during a paused game. And I also learned from him that he considers this behavior acceptable and has always done it and will continue to do it "with the opponent's consent" (his words), meaning that loading saves from a paused game is perfectly normal.

Of course, they were playing without password-protected saves.
As a result, we have documented evidence of saves being loaded before the game was finished.

We need to add a separate rule on all platforms stating that it is forbidden to load a save in the absence of an opponent, and it should also be forbidden to make moves in the absence of the opponent, so as not to tempt anyone. It is normal when, before resuming the game, the opponent gives 3-5-10 minutes to remember the position and plans for the game before passing the turn.
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#726
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Kilgore, you'll end up toothless and without a kidney.

Cobra, we also need to establish a rule that when you visit, you shouldn't be playing games on the World of Xeen.
Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.
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#727
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The Cobra joke will never get old. :) It's already a classic Heroes meme.
Не бійся коли ти один, бійся коли ти нуль.

484800548

In reply to Captain
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#728
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Captain
Kilgore, you'll end up toothless and without a kidney.

:smile45: , I demand protection from sailors! :smile52:

P.S. you still haven't answered whether you're ready to "bet" on a razor!
ICQ 245338291
Ник в лоби - Kilgory
In reply to Kilgor
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#729
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Kilgor
I don't think Indra is a blatant cheater; I won’t rule out the possibility that this is his first time doing it.
This option will have to be excluded.

Spring season 2009.
SEM_56 received the save file for replay several days after the game was postponed.
/topic/5780/
From 267 - Oelm's report, then 273 and up to 282.
The situation is exactly the same as now.
Almost 4 years have passed since then. You need to be quite an optimist to believe that there were only two such situations.

And Oelm never really hid the fact that he believes he has the right to "think" a little about the saved game of a postponed match:
/topic/at/526288/
Oelm
Didn't understand the question, are you suggesting opening something in parallel?

In general, with postponed games, they always do this. Simply because, for example, in the later stages, you need to keep a huge amount of information in your head (I don’t mean pathetic balance-panic, of course), sometimes chains are calculated cell by cell, and there is a plan for the game three or four days ahead, at least among good players, and if there is also time pressure...

Pete's case seems to be some kind of major exception.

Whether it's single player or multiplayer doesn't matter much. After all, can't a hidden map hacker secretly peek at the map anyway?

P.S. Maybe there is a different ethic on blitz controls, but such matches are usually not postponed.

It seems that in the topic, they gently explained that he shouldn't do that, quoted the rules, and expressed the opinion of the forum.