Posts from Time is money, or are you going to waste it?

We need to introduce regular 4-minute tournaments on HeroesWorld, a-la sc2tv, or else shake up Kalababa. With such a timer, honestly only M-sized maps are playable, well, maybe L-U at most, and naturally 200%.

I would gladly play!

Hello. I'm writing on behalf of the viewers. Watching streams of template matches like 8v8, 6v6, etc., means constantly waiting for the streamer's turn. There's a lot of back-and-forth, and the gameplay feels very relaxed. That's why I've been trying to find streams with a balanced multi-variant setup, 2v2, and yesterday I watched a skirmish. You sit down and watch, and it's interesting, and there's a chance that the game will be started and finished in this stream. Delaying matches is bad and encourages cheating.

watching and playing are different things, and no one will build a winning strategy on the XL template within a 4-minute time limit – there are only two exceptions: 1) playing against a newbie; 2) just messing around.

watching and playing are completely different things), and on the XL template, no one will secure a victory within the 4-minute limit — with 2 exceptions: 1) playing against a noob; 2) just messing around

I disagree!
I organized a tournament on HeroesWorld with a 600+300 time limit and battles, BT version.
Watching the stream of Vick vs Vlk777 playing Jebus Cross on 600+300 was very interesting for me. It reminded me somewhat of football.
I played against Vick in this tournament. We played 8mm6a. He gathered 14 Angels from all the nearest Confluxes (4 of them) and came to me on day 126 with 14 Angels and won. The game lasted 2 hours.
Question:
If what Vick did can be done on 600+300, then why 4000+500 and above ???
P.S. By the way, Vick beat Kapitan in that tournament, and Kapitan conceded defeat.

P.S. By the way, Vic beat Captain in that tournament; Captain admitted defeat.

Yes :)
I don't really understand why I'm being mentioned here though :)
We played on VT, I forgot about a stack of archers hidden in the boss's tactics and got wrecked by them - I lost my archers and surrendered around 113, I think :)
You need to know how to play on VT—or rather, have the habits so that everything happens automatically as it does in SoD; in other words, be a pro at what you do.
And unfortunately, we have few of those now, which is why everyone wins by attrition, calculations, and stalling for 10 minutes without fighting, since you can't show your skill that way.
I'll repeat once more for people like that—your opponent is in the exact same position!!!

I am in favor of time limits, both in battles and in the game overall. The stricter, the better. In the past, as a beginner, I only had time to play on weekends. I thought we could comfortably play a Best-of-3 in 30 hours, but after games 114 and 115, or 124 and 125, lasting over 60 minutes each, I realized I was wrong (in the BEGINNER level!!!! the game lasted 30 hours...). If it weren't for this time-consuming aspect, that wouldn't have happened (I simply didn't have time for the 3rd game due to a move). Before joining the Hv (Heroes vs. Heroes), I used to play against the computer at 1x7, 200%, and beat XL+U in 1.5-2 hours, about 3 months. For me, it was strange to play and "mindlessly attack" for 4 minutes. So, let's have a tournament with a fast timer... And why not play L (Low difficulty) with a 4-minute timer? Everyone will be on equal footing. You'll just have to think about what your opponent is doing, rather than just waiting for your turn to start, and you'll reduce the time for both yourself and your opponent. Of course, the quality will suffer for everyone. A person will play worse on a 4-minute timer than on an 8-10 minute timer, but there will immediately be potential to improve and play at the same quality as on an 8-minute timer, and the game time will be significantly reduced. As always, I 100% agree with Kostya... I just wrote down my thoughts.

In my opinion, the argument that "more time per turn equals higher quality gameplay" is nonsense. The same quality of gameplay as in 10 minutes can easily be achieved in 4 minutes. After all, that's part of the skill – to give 100% in the shortest possible time. Those who were slow and couldn't manage in 4 minutes will still be unable to manage in 10 minutes. In my opinion, the time limit in tournaments should be forcibly reduced so that people don't get complacent and learn to think quickly. Otherwise, they'll get lazy, and we'll end up with unlimited time and games lasting for months.

Or the best option, say for Jebus Cross, would be chess clocks (the leader there put it well, saying that time is needed most in the middle of the game...). So that a person saves time in the beginning in order to have time to think later. I think not everyone will be able to make the transition painlessly at first, but with experience it will come. And chess clocks will significantly save game time.
1 downside: at the end of the game, there might be time left, and the person will stop pushing themselves and start stalling again (a downside or not, who knows).

PS Also about clocks. To add time after clearing Dwarf Cottages, Naga Cottages, and so on, so that breaking Dwarf Cottages is painless time-wise on Jebus.

Anyone can get tired, and frankly, the kind of boosting seen in the style of Nagana evokes unpleasant emotions.
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2 Oelm.

I also appreciate you for your generous spirit and kind nature. Why did you even come to World of Xeen? You could have stayed on Bay, Portal, or wherever you came from. Or did it just get boring there?

Regarding the 4-minute turn time. In the Chaos League, we played HotA+WoG on 4-minute turns, and there were no problems. BUT, we played in clubs, not online. The only reason we switched to 6-minute turns for online play was that we had to wait for our turn to start, as losing seconds on a 4-minute turn is critical.
This problem has already been solved – the turn won’t start until you click. Personally, I don’t see any problem with playing HotA+WoG on 4-minute turns with a SoD timer now. It’s perfectly sufficient.

Message from Dirty_Player:
On July 30, 2009, the HMM3 Lighter program was invented by vbn.......and one fine day the HD-mod appeared from baratorch......but on our forum, the info appearance is dated October 1, 2010........Then an illogical and incomprehensible process began for me... THE TIME PER TURN STARTED TO INCREASE. WTF??? How? Why?

I’ll start by saying that this question is indeed important and the topic is 100% relevant; I thought about it myself, and now you created the thread, so let’s talk (I’ll be brief)...

So, when I first registered on HeroesWorld, for a while I heard the word "template" from everyone and didn’t know what it was. When I found out, I realized that smka is its name. When I started playing while looking at the scheme, I can say that I didn’t look at other schemes because everyone played it, and the PROS at that time played the great ones named 8mm6 and 6lm10. As a result, there were about 7 main game templates back then (smka, mm6, 6lm, Jebus Cross, mini, and well, Panic with Balance). Personally, playing with players, I very easily beat newbies like me (except for a couple of players) without trying particularly hard to learn anything. Newbies were real noobs, and those with a year or more of experience weren’t much stronger—that’s 100% certain, which can’t be said about today’s!!!

What happens next? The mod appears, a reevaluation of values begins, a transition to the mod’s functionality. Then, over these 2 years, there’s a huge surge of streams, which dramatically increase the learning speed of newbies at least in the "basics of Heroes." Then, from 2012 onwards, new templates are uploaded and mastered, that’s all!!! /topic/8777/. Among other things, kalababa organizes tournaments, and in general, many diverse tournaments have taken place. The result of all this diverse Heroic life is a transition to game quality, and oddly enough, the choice fell on the timer.

Reasons
I will now try to clarify the position I hold on this issue. Of course, it’s obvious that the more time given per turn, the higher the quality of the game.

Yes.

However, there are several downsides to this:

1. Dragging out. Increasing the time per turn drags out the game.......If before you could play several tournaments, now players simply can’t handle it.

Yes.

2. Game quality. Many use this argument. However, watching game streams, which are abundant now, I came to the conclusion that there isn’t that much quality. People play on 10 minutes and really sit and zone out; they actually don’t have enough of those 10 minutes.

Yes, that happens too, BUT overall, turns become higher quality, but you have to spend time for that. The fact that someone can play fast is one thing, but if you give that same player, say, 30 minutes more time, I’m sure they would rethink some moves and improve either the battle quality or the pace.

Personally, I remember players like....

Despite the class of past players, the forum now lives by those who remain—you, me, Uncle Pete, Aunt Mote—and others play, and we need to start from here. There are plenty of strong players now too, but everything happens within different limits.

3. Spectacle. Many complain that Heroes is not an esports discipline, that games drag on for hours, and it’s boring to watch...

I agree, it decreases, but only online.
There is a solution: for viewers, organize tournaments on 200% on an M map or watch compilations of game videos on large templates, where you can skip 5-10 minutes. But on the other hand, spectacle increases when a person, waiting a long time for their turn, shifts the conversation to off-topic subjects, and it’s interesting to hear their opinions, even if unrelated to the game, but concerning Heroes (this is a digression, but it does add a certain charm).

The ability to quickly make the most correct decisions better than the opponent is also part of skill.

The ability to generally make more correct decisions is also part of skill, and speed—the time limit for making the most correct decision—doesn’t mean there should be no time at all, but it does mean that the less time there is, the less time for the most correct decision. And at the moment, the speed is such that it forced this topic to be created.

5. The history of time in chess. Before the advent of clocks, games could drag on for a day or more until someone wore the other down by attrition. With the advent of clocks in the 19th century, the problem was solved. I won’t go into details, I’ll just give the timeline.

In SoD, there are clocks, don’t compare—there, time is given per turn for touching a single piece and moving it to another square; ALL OTHER TIME IS ONLY FOR THINKING ABOUT THE MOVE!

Now in chess, blitz and rapid are more popular. For the reasons of lower time investment and greater spectacle.

Popularity is just a trend and nothing more. Today it’s one thing (like 6 min 2 years ago), tomorrow it’s another (like today’s timer), but that doesn’t mean classical chess is bad; quite the opposite.

I’m not suggesting to act rashly, I’m just suggesting trying to reduce game time, at least in seasonals. Maybe later we’ll get to tournaments.

Not at all. We need to start with tournaments, and then implement it into seasonals, because the forum doesn’t bend to a little tournament, but the tournament is on the forum.


Regarding the chess timer:
In my opinion, this will be the most imbalanced gimmick for SoD!
What are chess and the chess timer? It’s a tribute to equal amounts of time in absolutely identical conditions without external factors, except for the starting color, and all tactics stem from that. White moves, Black tries to figure them out and defend, at best counterattack. All actions of both players are confined solely to a battle of minds. Each sees the opponent’s move and sees what they can do, but the one who sees further or who doesn’t make a mistake wins. In Heroes, this is nowhere close.
We play with different towns, heroes, armies, different opponents, we have a ton of various external influences, plus we don’t see the board at all! Imagine a large board covered by a veil of darkness, a different number of pieces (heroes), and they move any old how! What does the chess timer have to do with this???:confused: :confused:
With a chess timer, someone really needs to kill zombies with griffins, while the opponent will spank twice as many golems with grand elites and spend less time. And if there are many such long guards (for griffins), then why should you spend more time on elementary but longer battles? The chess timer is only relevant in a mirror match with identical towns and perfectly equal (mirror) placements of everything on the map; otherwise, there’s no chess equivalence.

And if you consider that one person gets heavy slow units, and the army gets drained (e.g., grand elites or marksmen killed by morale on the first day), then the chess timer will melt in a geometric progression, becoming more and more unfair just because the battles are longer, even if they are winnable.

Message from Ihtiandr:
In my opinion, the argument like "more time per turn – higher game quality" is nonsense. The same game quality as on 10 minutes can easily be shown on 4 as well.

That’s impossible! Either you have to be not very smart to play the same on 4 minutes per turn as on 10.


Above I wrote my view on the disagreements about the timer and the impossibility of implementing it in SoD. But the solution, oddly enough, is obvious:

- Organize SoD tournaments with less SoD-style time; I think this would be the most correct approach. If you liked 200% with 4 min, make a tournament on XL with 4 minutes and that’s it, what’s the problem??? I’ll play myself:D

Added after 9 minutes

Message from KobRa_RR:
If you want to play StarCraft or Quake, then go play, don’t agitate others... Many find it convenient to do their own things during the opponent’s turn (family stuff, work, playing, etc.), many find it inconvenient.

Also true, Heroes haven’t grown into a professional discipline.

Message from LeBron:
I’ll give a +1 to Kostyan; half of what he wrote is our yesterday’s Skype conversation..........
In my opinion, the thread very clearly states both the proposal and the reasons why it should be listened to.

Well written, but it’s not all lumped together.

Message from c0nn3c71nkK.ppL:
It’s high time to throw together a tournament with small control. Haven’t had one in a while)

:smile01:

well, let's talk (I'll be brief)...

That’s what I love about Max – his conciseness. No unnecessary fluff, straight to the point! :smile20:

Well, let's talk (I'll be brief)...

I was expecting this troll response from you :D

there is an opinion from super pro players in Heroes: Kosti, Lebron, Stinger
and the opinion of the football player Max.
:)))