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Posts from ASW – Alternative hero leveling. Auto-translated

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#106
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Nargott
How long does it take to instill the idea that the "General balance" in your system is already being distorted by definition? If you are running away from changes to the General balance, then nothing should be changed in the system.
Don't you remember that I said the balance evens out in the end? I've been saying this since the NHF mod.
Nargott

Too much fantasy (what I'm considering and what I would break), too few arguments. City classes help in supporting spell upgrades (if we're talking about the starting city), but their influence is much less (simply because the starting city is not the only object on the map). In the end, create a topic about city classes (but first, make sure it's technically feasible), and we'll talk about it there.
It's feasible. I checked yesterday (and wrote about it in this topic, you can search for it). City classes will still end up in this topic if only the native schools are changed. If, in addition to classes, different buildings are also made, then the idea will most likely be in the neighboring topic. We need to think about this.

Added 1 minute ago
Nargott

And regarding the fact that city classes apply to all cities, what difference does it make, from the point of view of obtaining spells, whether we encounter a new class-based Inferno with Darkness + Light on the map, or an old Castle with Darkness + Light?
o_O You won't encounter both at the same time! And there's also a cunning mentor who can completely retrain a hero in another school, and the spells will be right there. + It's better to develop the second native city than a non-native one, even if you're building a guild.
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#107
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In general, I think we’ve already discussed the issues related specifically to character progression, and now it’s just pointless rambling. Will you give the Elf an enhanced summoning ability? Okay. Will you give perks for obtaining free summoning spells outside of summoning (phantom)? No. Will you give Elves wasps/a hive without summoning? Also no. It seems like there’s nothing left to discuss here. Added 2 minutes later
Don’t you remember that I said the balance evens out in the end? I said it even with the NHF mod.
So why are you telling me that the Elf’s Summoning ability is bad because it enhances it?
o_O You won’t encounter both of them at the same time! And there’s also a cunning mentor who can completely retrain a hero into a different school, and the spells will be right there. + It’s better to develop a second native city than a non-native one, even if it means building a guild.
What do you mean by “both at the same time”? In one case (without your mod for city classes), I’ll encounter a Castle. In the other case (with your classes), I’ll encounter Inferno with Light on the map. What’s the difference, what’s the point (from the perspective of supporting character progression with external spells)? Ah, so the influence of classes on external objects boils down to obtaining spells from 3-4 schools, while simultaneously using native castles and troops? So, if a second native castle appears on the map, and its class is different from the starting one, then there’s a double benefit? And am I correct in understanding that city classes are now part of the ASW theme? You’re the author, you decide. P.S. I think we’ve been on a first-name basis for a while now, or do you prefer a formal style?
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#108
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Nargott
Actually, I think we've already discussed the issues related specifically to upgrading, and now it's just going off-topic.
Will you give the Elf an increased summoning ability? Okay.
Will you give perks for obtaining free summoning spells outside of summoning (phantom)? No.
Will you give Elves wasps/a hive without summoning? Also no.
For now, these are just malicious speculations, inspired by the "summoned stone elemental."
Nargott

So why are you telling me that Summoning is bad for the Elf because it enhances it?
Because the modification should only affect the theme of this mod. And it's impossible without external modifications.
Nargott

I don't understand. Explain the difference between your new class-based Inferno (Darkness + Light) and the old, good Castle (without using your classes).
Isn't it obvious?

Added 1 minute ago
Nargott

Why both at once? In one case (without your mod for city classes), I'll encounter a Castle. In the other case (with your classes), I'll encounter an Inferno with Light on the map. What's the difference, what's the point?
Do you know the difference between a second native city and a second non-native city?

Added 6 minutes ago
Nargott

P.S. We've been on "you" terms for a while, or do you prefer a formal style?
It's just easier to avoid swearing.

Added 4 minutes ago
Nargott

And am I right in assuming that city classes are now part of the ASW theme? You're the author, you decide.
Not yet, these are just thoughts. It depends on whether I will use classes, and in them, different building schemes.
+ there is also another interesting idea that needs to be properly formulated and tried out, but I'm not sure about that yet.
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#109
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These are just malicious speculations for now, inspired by the "summoned stone elemental."
So, a decision on these points hasn't been made yet?
Because the fix should only affect the theme of this mod. And it's impossible without external changes.
Really? I suggested increasing the summoning ability by increasing education. An elf without education, in my opinion, has just as much impact as an elf with summoning.
And what are you going to use to increase summoning?
Do you know the difference between a second native city and a second non-native city?
I've already explained this in the suggestion below. In my opinion, this is an insignificant difference, given how rare the situation is. If the game is played from 2 cities, then the chance is 1/8 x 1/2 (if there are 2 classes) = 6%. If there are more cities, then nothing prevents you from developing the native city into troops and the non-native city into a guild.

Interestingly, you have a different point of view - hero classes are bad (despite the game's role-playing focus), but city classes are good. Although, in essence, both things serve the same purpose - supporting a larger number of effective upgrades for a race (in the first case, through stats and chances, and in the second - through spells).
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#110
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Nargott

I've already explained this in the suggestion below. In my opinion, this is an insignificant difference due to the rarity of the situation. If the game is played with 2 cities, then the chance is 1/8 x 1/2 (if there are 2 classes) = 6%. If there are more cities, nothing prevents you from developing the native city into troops and the non-native city into a guild.
1) Other cities won't appear early, and magic is needed (or there are very few such maps)
2) Cumulative buildings? Is the army from the second native city not important? The guild will help raise the level of the second city if needed.
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#111
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1) Other towns won't appear early, and magic is needed (or there are very few such maps).
It depends on the map. I prefer maps like those in Heroes 3, where there are plenty of places to expand to in the first week. Or do you only envision maps with completely blocked passages and staying put in the starting zone? On closed maps, the role of the starting guild is more important, which is understandable.
2) Cumulative buildings? Is an army from the second home town not important? The guild can help raise the level of the second town if needed.
I agree about raising the level. Regarding the army from the second home town, read the previous post carefully, specifically:
If there are more towns, nothing prevents you from developing the home town into troops and the non-home town into a guild.
(for clarity: second home town).
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#112
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Nargott

That's an interesting point of view – hero classes are a good thing (despite the game's RPG elements), while city classes are even better. Although, in essence, both serve the same purpose – supporting a larger number of effective upgrades for each race (in the first case, through stats and chances, and in the second, through spells).
City classes were intended for the NTBF project, but initially, they were supposed to have alternative buildings (not in the way they are now, of course, but something similar). Since they easily solve the problem of native magic, why not apply them here?
In multiplayer, I prefer more strategy; in single-player, I prefer the RPG aspect (maps – single-player maps from the same Heroes 5).
I didn't say that hero classes are bad. I said that "they are only needed with a large number of heroes," because development strategies start to repeat. For some reason, you perceive my relative answers as absolute (the uselessness of summoning because it's weak (as you thought I thought), hero classes are unnecessary... – there are many more examples).

Added 2 minutes later
Nargott
It depends on the map. I prefer maps like those in Heroes 3, where there are already places to expand to in the first week. Or do you only envision one type of map, with completely blocked passages and staying in the starting zone? On closed maps, the role of the starting guild is more important, which is understandable.
Most maps have difficult access to the second city. Who was the parenthetical remark intended for?
Nargott

I agree about leveling up. Regarding the army from the second native city – read the previous post carefully, specifically:
What prevents developing an army in both?
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#113
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What prevents developing an army in both?
You didn't understand the point. I'll explain with an example.

Let's say we have a Castle (our home base). And on the map, we encounter a Castle (Chaos version) and an Inferno. The hero levels up in Chaos.

In your case: building a second Castle + guild in it. In the classic version: building the second Castle for troops, building the Inferno for the guild. That is, almost the same thing.

Added after 59 seconds
Most maps have difficult access to the second city.
I don't care about this majority, because I simply don't play on such boring maps. Of course, this is a subjective point of view, as is any opinion.
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#114
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Nargott

I don't care about this majority, because I simply don't play on such boring maps. Of course, this is a subjective point of view, as is any opinion.

And here's the avatar coming in handy.
It has been written many times above why this is inappropriate.
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#115
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Well, here's where the avatar comes in handy.
I liked it better with House.
It's been said many times why this is inappropriate.
What's inappropriate? On one type of map, your town classes will play the way you intended. On another, they won't play at all. That's why the upgrade itself is much more important. Is that an inappropriate argument?

However, it's already just arguing for the sake of arguing. On the topic: I think it's more convenient to discuss town classes in the appropriate thread. Just prepare some options beforehand so there's something to discuss (and not just the spherical usefulness of classes in a vacuum).
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#116
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Nargott
What's inappropriate? On one type of map, your town classes will play as you intended. On another, they won't play at all, or almost not. Is this an inappropriate argument?
The same can be said about your changes to schools for races. You're setting obstacles for yourself. Although, you can safely ignore one percent of cases, if not less (unless someone constantly plays on the same map).
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#117
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Dyrman
The same can be said about your changes to the schools for each race. You're sabotaging yourself.
Come on. The elf's summon works on any map. You yourself wrote that this is its buff.

The point of the argument is getting lost. Will the elf have an accessible summon in the upgrade path? If so, there's nothing to argue about.

And by the way, how will you solve the problem of rare schools for other races? Since introducing city classes with different guilds suggests that heroes will have access to several schools (more than 2). It turns out that either the chances of rare schools become normal (at least 5%), or the new city classes become less relevant.
But on the other hand, you can't give all heroes easy access to all schools, right? The solution to the problem is hero classes (for example, a ranger has access to Light + Chaos, a druid - to Light + Summon).
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#118
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All conditions must be met:
1) A very rare map must appear;
2) The second town, which will have the necessary rare magic, must appear;
3) We want to build only a magic guild in one town and an army in another; we are very picky, and the town must not be our native one;
4) This town must be captured before the third week, and already with a built guild, that is, even earlier;
5) The main character must return to the second town and obtain this magic;
6) And before the guild, you still need to get there; it requires a level 3 castle – but at that time, you can already defeat everyone;
7) The Spellbook must not be available;
8) The required spell must appear in the guild.

And if all this coincides, what could be worse?

Added 2 minutes later
Nargott
Come on. The Elf Summoning spell works on any map. You yourself wrote that this is its enhancement.
So, it's a town class with summoning. What's the difference? If you are criticizing the town class in an unclear way, then you are also criticizing the elf with summoning.
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#119
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1) A very rare map must appear;
4) This city must be captured before the third week, and already with a built guild, that is, even earlier;
Excuse me, but capturing new cities in the 3rd week and later means that it is no longer an open map, but a closed one. That is, on an open map, this is not a problem.
2) That second city, which will have the necessary rare magic, must appear;
On an open map, this is not a problem (there are many cities). An open map implies spreading out and capturing cities in the 1st-2nd weeks. Play the third game on its Grand Strategy Campaign, and then you will understand what kind of maps I am talking about.
5) The main character will return to the second city and take this magic;
How is this different from "returning to the starting or home city"?

Added 2 minutes ago
And even if this coincides, will it be worse?
It will be worse than your classes only if the balance suffers.
Well, it's a city class with summoning. What's the difference?
Well, you made an elf (with an upgrade!) with summoning. Now he has 3 native schools. Will you make the other heroes with 3 schools as well?
And if you don't give the elf easy summoning, then there will be little point in the summoning city.
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#120
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Answer the main question: why is it worse to use town classes than to give other native magic schools to races?
Everything stems from this. Or is it just a different pond with more unusual bubbles than mine?
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