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Offline Noom
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Why not just decline? If the load was given to you unconditionally, you are not obliged to give a load to your opponent. If we are going to introduce a rule about loads, then we should introduce a set of standard options to choose from, with the priority option being a game without loads. With standard options, it will be easier to agree in advance on which load rule we are playing – simply by referencing the option in the rules.
Dim, I think we just need to clearly formulate the most common options and include them in the rules, with priority given to the first option (at our discretion, i.e., "without regulated loads").
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Offline JonnyP
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Noom
Why not just refuse? If someone gives you a load for free, you are not obligated to give them a load in return...
Oh yeah, right... 'All for the win':rolleyes:
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Offline Noom
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I wouldn't want to invent situations where I wouldn't provide a counter-load, but they undoubtedly exist. And I think I have clearly stated my point of view, and there is no need to attribute my own thoughts to me. The point of view is simple: if the rule about loads is not specified or is specified as "at the discretion," then there can be no talk of obligations to the opponent because these obligations do not exist.
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Offline fil0sof
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Noom
I wouldn't want to invent situations where I wouldn't provide a counter-load, but they undoubtedly exist.

And I (and I doubt I'm the only one...) would be extremely interested to see such a situation, because in my opinion (and again, I doubt it's just my opinion), the situation "received a load - opponent requested a load - refused" looks, to put it mildly, extremely unethical.
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Offline KillAndAction
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fil0sof
I (and I doubt I'm the only one) would be very interested to see how this situation plays out, because in my opinion (and again, I doubt it's just my opinion), the situation where "one player initiates a load, the opponent requests a load, and the first player refuses" looks, to put it mildly, extremely unethical.
This situation, where a player refuses to provide a reciprocal load, does not contradict the rules, as there is no requirement for the legitimacy of loads. In other words, it does not contradict the existing rules...
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Offline ABKSever
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Noom
I wouldn't want to invent situations where I wouldn't reciprocate with a load, but they undoubtedly exist. And I think I've made my point clear, and you shouldn't attribute your own thoughts to me. The point is simple: if the rule about loads isn't specified or is specified as "at one's discretion," then there can be no talk of obligations to the opponent because those obligations don't exist.

If there are situations where you won't give a load (the game didn't go well, or something else), then in those situations, you simply shouldn't ask for or take a load yourself. If you lose, you lose. Regarding the rules, blah, blah, blah... there is such a thing as normal human behavior and attitude, and when I play with someone, I expect that kind of attitude, especially if I behave that way towards that person myself (the fact that I give a load is precisely one of the manifestations of this normal attitude). And if someone were to pull a fast one on me with a load (I gave, they didn't return it), I would draw quite obvious conclusions about that person, and I definitely wouldn't play Heroes with them in the future, except perhaps in a tournament.
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Offline JonnyP
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Noom
...I think I made my point clearly, and you shouldn't attribute your own thoughts to me...
No one is doing that; please, no personal attacks. This isn't about you; it's about the situation with load orders.
Agree on things before the game so there are no hard feelings or misunderstandings later. There's no need to introduce it as a rule – the reason is simple, and it's already been discussed; it will cause more problems than it solves.
ABKSever
...Regarding the rules, blah, blah, blah, there is such a thing as normal, decent behavior and attitude, and when I play with someone, I expect that kind of attitude, especially if I behave that way towards them (the fact that I provide a load order is one of the manifestations of this normal attitude), and if someone were to cheat me with a load order (I gave one, and they didn't return it), I would draw very clear conclusions about that person and definitely wouldn't play Heroes with them in the future, except in tournaments.
That's what it's about – respecting your opponent. I completely agree.
Besides, if you just stick to the rules, you can pull the plug, block the load order, and add neutrals.... And no one will notice :rolleyes:
Try to prove it – after all, you technically haven't broken any rules :rolleyes: ('All for the win').
I've never understood this; what will such a victory give you? You win – good for you, but it won't make you play any better. Besides, the title of tournament winner is far from the main indicator of skill. :smile33:
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Offline DanielM
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Any attempts to regulate the number/sequence of load orders will inevitably lead to players finding ways to circumvent these regulations. Strong players won't resort to such tactics, and they usually provide load orders. Therefore, I don't see any point in including this in the rules. We can simply state somewhere that all load orders are subject to agreement between the players; those who need them will arrange it before the game.
Only when we reach a point where streaming (recording) all tournament games is mandatory, can we discuss how and when someone should or shouldn't provide load orders to others.
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Offline Stiletto
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-Regarding the "load for load" topic, it's a natural and fair thing. You made a mistake, and you gave your opponent a chance. Maybe the first person to take the load will actually benefit more from it; who knows for sure?)
-Regarding "shun-dodging": firstly, the main motive for such an action is playing for real money, and secondly, it's a lack of respect for oneself and one's own skill.
-And regarding joining neutral creatures: I've never seen anyone join me on IRMG maps in Team Edition. And since you're so afraid of such minor things, Elemental, there are special settings for neutral creature behavior that can be configured so that they never join at all. Furthermore, mixed armies by default never join. I hope that's enough arguments.
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Offline Leolopus
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Stiletto
As for recruiting neutral creatures: I've never seen anyone join me in The Eastern Lands maps in Heroes of Might and Magic.
You seem to have a misconception about recruiting neutral creatures. Yes, those initially generated on the map as guards for objects or artifacts are unlikely to join, at least I haven't encountered that in practice. However, we're talking about neutral creatures that appear on the map as a result of their weekly spawns. For example, playing as Carl, when the Stork week arrives (which increases the growth rate of Swordsmen by two), I can recruit as many Swordsmen as I want. I'll specifically load Carl up with troops, and every second Swordsman stack that appears as a result of the Stork week will ask to join me, and there will be a lot of these stacks on the map. Thus, it is quite possible to recruit 1000 Swordsmen into my army without having any growth for them at the start, and this is precisely what the rule about recruiting prohibits.
"Шанс есть всегда, но не везде." ;)
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Offline Stiletto
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well, maybe we could try initiating a global command with adjusted troop settings?
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Offline Dyrman
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Leolopus
You seem to have a misconception regarding the recruitment of neutral creatures. While those initially generated on the map as guardians of objects or artifacts are unlikely to join, at least I haven't encountered that in practice, we're talking about neutral creatures that appear on the map as a result of weekly events. For example, playing as a Fortress hero, when the Stork week arrives (which doubles the growth rate of Swordsmen), I can recruit as many Swordsmen as I want. I'll specifically load up my hero with troops, and every other stack of Swordsmen that appears as a result of the Stork week will ask to join me, and there will be plenty of these stacks on the map. Thus, it is quite possible to recruit 1000 Swordsmen into my army without having any growth for them at the start, and it is precisely this that the rule about recruitment prohibits.
In the map properties, you can disable the spawning of creature weeks.
Моды для HeroesV:
NHF 0.90 : NHF - группа в VK

Карты для HeroesV:
Путешествие , Условие крови , Рука судьбы.Часть 1: В поход , Рука судьбы.Часть 2: Отчаянье , Рука судьбы.Часть 3: Восхождение , Стойкость
Абсолютная власть , Иду на Вы! , Корона Ургаша , На задворках
Мир надо уничтожить... Чтобы создать свой...
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Offline Stiletto
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No, that definitely won’t work.
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Offline Dyrman
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Stiletto
No, that definitely won't work.
Then why have creature weeks if you're not going to use them?
Моды для HeroesV:
NHF 0.90 : NHF - группа в VK

Карты для HeroesV:
Путешествие , Условие крови , Рука судьбы.Часть 1: В поход , Рука судьбы.Часть 2: Отчаянье , Рука судьбы.Часть 3: Восхождение , Стойкость
Абсолютная власть , Иду на Вы! , Корона Ургаша , На задворках
Мир надо уничтожить... Чтобы создать свой...
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Offline Stiletto
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I don't understand something. You yourself said that it would be better to ban certain creatures, and now you're asking yourself why they're needed if they're not being used? :D
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