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Posts from HoMM3 HD is a mod (add-on) for the game Heroes of Might and Magic 3. Auto-translated

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#593
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You can plan the heroes' movements even during the opponent's turn, and not just for one day ahead. And some difficult battles that open up good opportunities shouldn't be conducted at a frantic pace, just to lose. It's one thing when a player spends a minute thinking about where to move – one step to the right or diagonally, and another thing when they simply don't have enough time to conduct five battles using a long chain of actions in a single day.
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#594
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RiMpel2
You can plan your heroes' movements not just for the next turn, but for several days ahead. And some difficult battles that open up good opportunities shouldn't be rushed, just to lose.

It's one thing when a player spends a minute deciding where to move – one step to the right or diagonally; it's another when they simply don't have enough time to fight five battles with a long chain of units in a single day.
There can be no other truth. You see the map, you plan, but battles, no matter what they are, are battles, and they are very important. The way Dirty and Romario reason, they should just include a timer in the game and simply stand still if they have more time and win, because everything has a price. And in general, it's interesting why I should pay if I get hordes of zombies and golems, while others get fairies and goblins? It turns out you're paying the player for generating favorable spawns. In general, using ballistae against golems isn't prohibited by the rules, so why would someone impose additional restrictions on me, even though I'm not picking my nose, and the timer is ticking! Maybe we'll also have to pay for consumables and hives – just found a can, visited, and minus 100? That's exactly why SOD timer and Chess timer are different.
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
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#595
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RiMpel2
You can plan the movement of heroes even during the opponent's turn, and not just for one day ahead.
Of course. :D You planned everything for several days ahead, your turn came, you moved your first unit and revealed your strategy... Of course, all your plans remained exactly the same?
RiMpel2
And some difficult battles that open up good opportunities should not be conducted at a frantic pace, leading to defeat.
That's absolutely right, but only some difficult battles should be planned BEFORE the attack, not after. That's exactly what chess clocks are for, to allow more time for a complex move than for a simple one.
RiMpel2
It's one thing when a player spends a minute thinking about where to move - one step to the right or diagonally, and another thing when he simply doesn't have enough time to conduct five battles with a long chain of units in one day.
But who is to blame for the fact that he spent all 4000 seconds and doesn't have enough time? The player must manage his time wisely. Anyone who has played chess knows this.
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#596
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Dirty_Player
I agree with Roman. Even though I'm slow-witted, and it might be worse for me, I'm in favor of chess clocks. After all, any mental operations should be performed within the player's allotted time. For people who like to think, discuss, have a beer, etc., there can be an unlimited time limit by mutual agreement, but in a tournament setting, it should be this way. IMHO.
Well, I'm saying it's hard to understand... It always boils down to simply drinking beer.
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
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#597
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Dirty_Player
Of course. :D You planned several moves ahead, they passed the turn to you, and you made your first move, revealing your strategy... Of course, all your plans remained exactly the same?
This is not a guide to action for every game.
Everything said is correct, but only some difficult battles should be thought out BEFORE the attack, not after. This is exactly what chess clocks are for, to allow more time for a complex move than for a simple one.

I always initially know the terrain, the number of stacks, the order of morale drops, resistances, etc. Yes.

Well, who is to blame for the fact that he spent all 4000 seconds and didn't have enough time? The player must manage their time wisely. Those who have played chess know this.

This is funny. Seriously, how is 4k seconds, plus an additional 10 minutes, better than the standard 6-8 minutes per turn? So that in the endgame, you lose because you don't have time to do *something unpleasant*?
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#598
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R55Max
Well, I'm saying it's hard to understand... Especially since everything boils down to simply drinking beer.
Apparently, there are still people who don't understand the advantages of chess clocks. You're stuck on some complex battle that might only happen once per game, so chess clocks would be enough for you.
RiMpel2
That's funny. Seriously, how are 4,000 seconds, plus an additional 10 minutes, better than the standard 6-8 seconds per turn?
Are you even reading my messages? Okay, I'll highlight it in bold. The main advantage of chess clocks: The ability to think longer when the situation requires it. Some moves take 1-2 minutes, while others might take 20 minutes to consider during a single game. All moves have different values, and it's stupid that they all get the same amount of time.
RiMpel2
I always know the terrain, the number of units, the morale drop queue, resistances, etc., from the start. Yes.
This shouldn't affect the assessment and battle plan. Everything is evaluated BEFORE. Or do you attack giants first, and only then decide what to do with the titans in the battle? :D

Added 3 minutes later
RiMpel2
So that you lose in the endgame because you don't have time to do *something annoying*?
Isn't this about the SOD timer?
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#599
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I wonder how a 20-minute deliberation with a timer satisfies Roma's need for faster turns? :rolleyes: I'm not talking about him, it just started with his post. (:

You're right about the giants; that's exactly how I do it.
Isn't this about the SOD timer?
And don't people ignore the seconds spent at the end of the game in the SOD timer? Again, if that's not the case (who knows), then chess clocks don't speed up the game; they actually increase the game's duration. And if we consider mega-turns, where you need to think for 20 minutes (oh my god), then the time in battles is unclear why it's even there. Let the clock tick on the map, and everyone will be happy.
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#600
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Dirty_Player
Apparently, there are still people who don't understand the advantages of chess clocks. You're stuck in some complex battle that might only happen once per game, so chess clocks would be enough for you.

Are you not reading my messages at all? Okay, I'll highlight it in bold. The main advantage of chess clocks: The ability to think longer when the situation requires it. Some moves take 1-2 minutes, while others might take 20 minutes to consider during a game. All moves have different values, and it's foolish to give them equal time.

This shouldn't affect the assessment and battle plan. Everything is evaluated beforehand. Or do you attack giants first and only then decide in battle what to do with the titans? :D

Added 3 minutes later

Isn't this about the SOD timer?
Well, isn't it obvious that with a chess timer, you can't stop it, you can't pause it even with mutual consent. Saving is not the solution anymore. You can't answer a phone call, open the door, or step away from the table. This is a huge disadvantage! At least ask to pause the battle, or you get stuck. We're not professional players whose income comes solely from the game, so please don't compare it to chess and their clocks. And stubbornness has nothing to do with it because I see the obvious advantages of the SOD timer right now. When the game starts bringing in substantial money and when there are 500-1000 players in the league, then we can talk about limitations, but for now, every decent player is worth their weight in gold
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
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#601
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RiMpel2
It's interesting how a 20-minute deliberation with a timer satisfies Roma's need for faster turns? :rolleyes: We're not talking about him, it just started with his post (:
Roma mentioned one of the advantages, which is important, but not the main one. I mentioned the main one.
RiMpel2
You're right about the giants, that's exactly what I do.
Let that be on your conscience. :p
RiMpel2
And in SOD, don't people ignore the seconds spent towards the end of the game? Again, if this isn't the case (you never know), then chess clocks don't speed up the game, but rather increase the game time. And if we consider mega-turns, where you need to think for 20 minutes (oh my god), then the time in battles is generally unclear why it's needed. Let the clock tick on the map, and everyone will be happy.
Personally, I've had it happen many times when playing SOD that I don't have time to make an important move, no matter how many minutes there are. When the message "1 minute left until the end of the turn" appears, you start rushing, you don't have time, and so on. I'm just speaking from my own experience.
There are turns that take 20 minutes. Watch Jebus' streams more often, and you'll see many of them. And about the time in battle, Roma wrote correctly, and I added that I think all player actions should be limited by a timer. In other words, nothing should be free.

Added 2 minutes later
R55Max
Well, isn't it obvious that with a chess timer, it's impossible to stop it, you can't even pause it, even with mutual consent.
How is that so? Baratorch is trying to implement a feature so that the time only runs after pressing the "OK" button, like in WOT. Just don't accept the turn and go about your business.
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#602
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I don't need you to write about "jebus" and similar things. I've noticed that among you, long turns are associated with great skill, and conversely, quick turns are associated with noobishness (yes, I remember many times people tried to shut me up with this argument). For me, it's just associated with slow thinking (not to be confused with 20 minutes in battle; I'm talking about 20 minutes on the map). You've created a timer to buy time for mega-turns, but in doing so, you force people to rush in battles to quickly press the button to end their turn. I don't see any acceleration in the flow of the game. It's just another reason to ruin an interesting game.
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#603
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Dirty_Player

What do you mean, "it doesn't exist"? And why is Baratorch trying to implement a feature where time continues to pass after pressing the "OK" button, just like in Warlords? Just don't take your turn and go about your business.
It seemed to me that this feature was originally planned for SOD with a timer, and it's definitely needed; I hope it will be implemented. I just don't understand why you always try to make SOD a copy of Warlords? Warlords exists, so just play it. The HD mod for SOD is like a breath of fresh air, but there's no need to turn it into a second Warlords. SOD only needs refinement. Ultimately, I think it's wrong that tactical actions in battles are considered less important than actions on the map. For example, I might have enough time to retreat on the map, while you don't, and vice versa in tactical battles. You say that the advantage of tactical battles lies in the ability to distribute actions, sometimes taking longer, sometimes shorter, while I say that the advantage of SOD battles is the ability to always have enough time to react. BUT, you can carefully and without rushing, calculate the best possible moves in a battle, damage, and everything else, because in battles, and there are many of them, instead of getting bogged down in the endgame like in Warlords, you need to calculate the counterattack down to the last hit point of some units. Sometimes, there are major losses or near-losses due to such miscalculations.
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
#604
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I have never played Heroes online and I have never played chess with a timer.
However, I am well aware of the charm of chess clocks. When time saved on quick moves can be spent on critical, long moves. The only thing is, if they are ticking during battles, then time should be added for each battle, I believe.
actually, chasing golems with ballistas is not a violation of the rules and why would someone set further restrictions for me, even if, say, I'm not picking my nose while the timer is ticking! maybe I'll have to pay for cans too and hives just purely found a can, visited it and minus 100 more?
This can be solved by adding time proportional to the number of moves in battle, i.e., adding for every move in battle. That would be very correct, imho. Only here one needs to find the right ranges for additions. Starting time + time per map move + time per battle move.

In general, why fear chess clocks? Uncheck the chess timer in Advanced Options and you play with a SoD timer.
HoMM 3 HD:

последняя версия - 5.0 RC96 (19.09.2020)

последнее видео: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u70wC0DJ7I8

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#605
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to Dirty_Player, So, if you run out of ammo, should you just surrender and be killed, instead of trying to do something? Honestly, it sounds a lot like the reasoning of noobs in Gameranger, when there are more than two heroes, when you're not fighting alone, and when they see chains of actions – to them, that's all a sign of being a noob. :eek:
And the fact that you can't make your moves in SoD is strange and doesn't make any sense. This is just pointless rambling; please don't clutter up the thread.
For timing battles in SoD, chess clocks could only be optional and serve as a convenience when setting the duration of the entire turn, since there are enough biased (or ignorant) players who don't understand the tactics of complex (subtle) and prolonged battles (like gremlins with hordes of zombies on the first week, or Gurnisson or Luna with a single pixie). But if you come up with a timer for pauses in battles, that would be fair.
to R55Max, when I finish reading the last lines of your posts, I still can't find that rational kernel that helps develop the mod. Let it be constructive criticism, of a debatable nature, rather than useless (irrelevant) polemics.
Formally, any deviation from SoD that the mod provides is no longer original gameplay. The mod offers options for adapting the game to save time. So let's not complain, but help. And there are many threads for discussing battle tactics.
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#606
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This can be solved by adding time proportional to the number of turns in the battle, i.e., adding time for each turn in the battle. This would be very correct, in my opinion. The only thing is that you need to find the right ranges for the additions. Starting time + time per turn on the map + time per turn in battle.
In my opinion, adding time based on the number of turns in a battle is not a good idea, because there is no time limit. You enter a battle against someone with slow units, and you can fly around as an angel, for example, for as long as you want, until a minute or two or three passes. I haven't played Warlords Tactics much, but I can say that the idea of chess clocks is quite well thought out there. For starters, you could implement it the same way, with the option to disable it. And why are you arguing? Those who want chess clocks will play with them, and those who are against it can play without them, and everyone will be happy.

In general, in my opinion, it would be more worthwhile to discuss and pay attention to more important issues, such as banning certain artifacts, adjusting the level 2 building, and, for example, possibly theoretically changing the building tree, of course, all of this would be optional.
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#607
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baratorch
I have never played Heroes online, and I have never played chess with a timer.
However, I fully understand the beauty of chess clocks. When the time saved on quick moves can be spent on important, long moves. The only thing is, if you make them tick in battles, you need to add time for each battle. I think.
This can be solved by adding time proportional to the number of moves in the battle, i.e., adding time for each move in the battle. That would be very correct, in my opinion. But here you need to find the right ranges for the additions. Starting time + time per move on the map + time per move in battle.

In general, what are people afraid of with chess clocks? You can uncheck the box in Advanced Options for the chess timer and play without a timer.
I will try once again to convey the parasitic nature of the views that change the concept of the game! Heroes 3 was created, millions of people around the world played it, and they got used to what it has! Everything brilliant is simple! We have a normal timer, and many people like it and are satisfied with it; it just needs to be tweaked so that it starts with OK. There is no need to invent a million new things, because there is nothing bad about the old ones; why change it so much? Currently, I am trying to outline a cycle of games, which, if they wish, players from abroad can join. It's like a TOUR; I just can't get real to the computer right now (temporarily). Since it is necessary to involve people from abroad, they will not play on various WTs or SOD + HD mod. I really like the changes up to 2.96 at the moment, but it is already clearly noticeable that there is a desire, when creating the mod, to move away from SOD. First, it will be one introduction, then a second, and so on; then there will be many, there will be many different checkboxes, which means there will be many people who want to play with different checkboxes, all sorts of unnecessary hassles, and it will become like WT, which no one needs, at least not SOD players and most of the world. Let's think about making one version of the game and improving it, not changing it. Improving the timer is not a different kind of timer, but adding a smart feature, making it more useful. You can argue about everything. We always discuss some one nuance for a very long time, so if there are many of them, it will only be more difficult. It is necessary to bring everything to uniform rules that improve SOD gameplay, and not change the game with various new features, especially not to calculate any new additions or subtractions of time; this is very dangerous for the life of the mod and its compatibility with SOD + mod, since they are organic only when they are united. These additions, firstly, will be chosen by someone, accordingly, for themselves unconsciously, which means that there will be less consideration for others. I would like to remind you that chess clocks are PROFESSIONAL in chess, and the time there is also calculated with professional calculations, so they require skill and calculation, and in the Heroes environment, most of the world plays on SOD, they are very simple and brilliant in their own way, in a heroic way, and the players are also simple people who may not know chess, but they know Heroes.
Sanya, keep going with the SOD gameplay and don't make unnecessary things, and don't be tempted by attractive, but foreign features! There is a game! Make it better, not something else from it or with a large number of choices. There is no need to come up with even optionality. The game or mod to the game will live if they coincide and will change as little as possible.

Added 21 minutes ago
rebellious
to R55Max, when I finish reading the last lines of your posts, I still can't find it - that rational grain that helps to develop the mod. Let it be constructive criticism, of a debatable nature, and not useless (unthematic) polemics.
Formally, any deviation from SoD, which the mod provides us with, is no longer the original gameplay. The mod gives us options for adapting the game in order to save time. So let's not grumble, but help. And there are many topics for discussing battle tactics.
I partially agree; sometimes, there is not enough rationality. The immutability of SOD gameplay is meant in a figurative sense. Any changes, I agree, change the gameplay, but if they do not change the essence, but are only implemented elements for convenience, comfort, bug fixes, and improvement of the old ones, then, in a figurative sense, the gameplay remains the same. Simple examples: in SOD, we separated the units manually, and here, with one button, i.e., the same function, but it is convenient; to see the damage, you had to cast a spell, and here you can see it right away - saving time and again, it is convenient.
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...