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Were the heroes originally conceived as a game where a person plays directly against another person?
Or was there direct "player vs. player" interaction from the second day, as in The Kingdom Chronicles 3? :D
Perhaps we have different views on the same things. In my opinion, the role in exploring a map should be significant and still challenging in the game, and who said that it shouldn't be that way?
And by the way, you are presenting something that is not esports as if it were, and it will never be. And you are covering up all the shortcomings with only your inability and reluctance to act in these situations.
(This is not directed at you personally, Kostyan, but at everyone with such a worldview)
I'm going to sleep. Tomorrow I'll read Vik's long, kilometer-long rant about how I'm wrong about morality :D
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/ За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
Kostyan, the whining is annoying. You should check out the poker thread on the forum. Don't you find Expert's posts repulsive? It's always the same thing. Your posts also start to cause depression. SOD has its drawbacks, no one argues with that, but that's no reason to justify your noobishness in the game by blaming SOD's shortcomings. If you don't like playing with morals, GS, and slow roads, there's VT. There are many strong opponents there, and I don't see any problem with having a good time playing as a VT Tyrus. Everything is fine. But please, don't write nonsense about losing to angels in a niche on level 112 and other things.
P.S., Observation: among VT players, Jebus has taken a firm place instead of the ridiculed SMK, and he plays approximately the same role as the SMK template for SOD players.
Were heroes originally conceived as a game where a player directly interacts with another player?
Valid argument. Ironclad. Accepted.:o Lider1
Or in Warlords, is there direct interaction "with each other" from the second day, or is it like in Town of Courage 3? :D
We probably have different views on the same things. In my opinion, the role in exploring the map should be significant and still challenging in the game, and who said that it shouldn't be?
And by the way, you are presenting something as esports that is not, and never will be. And you are covering up all the shortcomings with only your inability and reluctance to act in these situations.
(This is not directed at you personally, Kostyan, but at everyone with such a worldview)
Clearing the map should be present, but the role of direct interaction with the opponent should not fall below a certain level. Yes, Warlords greatly simplifies battles with neutrals, yes, you can just climb into the Angel's lair without Tactics and nothing will happen to you (well, maybe some climb in with the intention of using auto-attack, I don't know:rolleyes: - no hints at anyone here) - but what's the downside? Development goes faster: what could have ended at, say, 135, ends at, say, 125 - who is worse off because of this? As one random opponent, a true SOD player at heart (we were playing SOD with Warlords), told me, "if you had come 2 (!!!!:D) weeks later, I would have:smile30:" and he also said: "maybe you'll regroup and come back in 2 weeks? please." This is the essence of SOD. In reality.
Ибу ибуди - хуйдао муди - Шаг за шагом можно достигнуть цели (китайская мудрость)
Кто к нам с пером придёт, тот от пера и погибнет!:smile51:
As one random opponent told me, a true SoD player at heart (we were playing VW on SoD), "if you had come 2 (!!!! ) weeks later, I would have [beaten] you" and he also said: "maybe you could turn around and come back in 2 weeks? pretty please." That is the essence of SoD right there.
As for me, being naive, I didn't understand what this mysterious essence of SoD was, until a VW guru opened my eyes. Thank you, master!
Did you want a rant? :)\n\nIt's a long one, so I'll keep it brief. In my opinion, Heroes players can be divided into two main categories: casual and hardcore. Casual players enjoy the simple act of moving their units around. They like exploring, collecting resources, and experiencing the game's events. Hardcore players, on the other hand, enjoy improving their gameplay, honing their skills, and feeling superior to their opponents.\n\nThe main question that a hardcore player constantly asks themselves is, "Why did I lose?" It is through answering this question that their skills develop. If the answer is something like, "I made a mistake here and there," then their skills are indeed improving. But if the answer is, "I was just unlucky," then their skills are not improving.\n\nGames with a high degree of randomness increase the percentage of the second type of answer. Therefore, they do not contribute to skill growth. Ideally, almost all answers should be of the first type. Examples of such games include Starcraft, Warcraft, Quake, and even chess. There is an element of randomness in these games, but it is relatively small.\n\nCurrently, the best option for playing Heroes that meets this requirement is the Warlord Tournament mirror match. In these matches, losses are almost always the result of one's own mistakes. Analyzing replays and comparing one's development with that of the opponent provides a wealth of material for analyzing one's own style and skills.\n\nIf this is not a priority, then SoD (Shadow of Death) will also do. This is why there are so many casual Heroes players in it. To each their own...\n\nAdded after 4 minutes\nOelm
P.S., Observation: Among Warlord Tournament players, Jebus has taken a firm place instead of the ridiculed CM (Challenge Mode), playing approximately the same role as CM for SoD players.
Jebus attracts people because the games on it are relatively quick, averaging 10-12 days. This means there is a good chance of finishing a game in one sitting.\n\nOn XL+U maps, the average game length is longer, about 3 weeks, which, with modern time control trends, leads to games played in multiple sessions.
Jebus attracts players because the games on it are relatively quick – averaging 10-12 days. This means there’s a good chance of finishing a game in one sitting.
On XL+U maps, the average game duration is longer, around 3 weeks, which, with modern time control trends, leads to games played in multiple sessions.
Exactly. In principle, for the same reason, the CM template is so popular. When I wrote about this before, hardcore WTS players argued that the XL template takes about the same amount of time to play.
To be honest, I never understood those who are bothered by morale. :confused: The only thing is that it's easier to play without it in the sense that you don't have to recalculate, be overly cautious, etc. I completely agree with Leader that this is a degradation; Vik's arguments about casual players are not convincing. I believe that every self-respecting player should be able to fight neutrals. Of course, it's not pleasant when, for example, some gnomes with morale join the wolves near Tyrus's stack, but taking any gnome stack on level 111 is also not right. But if someone is afraid of morale, then let them moderate their ambitions and limit themselves to crypts on the first level, and start attacking gnomes only on the second.
I agree with Yuri about the mirror image and Jebus. It would be great if someone could combine these into one :smile20:
I agree with Yuri about the mirrored map and Jebus. It would be great if someone could combine these ideas:smile20:
If you mean mirroring the Jebus map, it doesn't seem too difficult; the question is the map size and the number of spawn points. If everything is like on the standard Jebus map, you just copy a floor, and there will be 5 spawn points per floor. Or, you could reduce the map size to that of a "LK" map with 3 spawn points per floor. But in both cases, it will still come down to "eating" your own map. And to have only one treasure for two players is technically impossible. There is an option to place teleporters in the center, but I'm afraid it will turn out badly.
If you mean mirroring the Jebus Cross, then it's not difficult, the only question is - what map size and how many respawns. If everything is like on the usual Jebus Cross, then just copy the floor and there will be 5 respawns per floor. Or go through downsizing the map to Лки with 3 respawns per floor. But in both options, it will all come down to devouring one's own map. And to have just one treasure zone for two - technically unreal. There is an option to put teleports in the center, but I'm afraid it will turn out to be nonsense.
Symmetric Jebus Cross is already made. I'll add it to the set soon. Size L or M. But on M it turns out quite poor, although it's not that the respawns are very small. Possibly, for M-size, we need to make a template with two starting zones instead of 4.
The central treasure zones are connected by 2 pairs of teleports crosswise. This eliminates the possibility of too quick meeting in the treasure zone near the teleport closest to ГО. So in that regard, no nonsense will come out, don't worry ).
There is another problem - the generator often creates roads to villages that enter the treasure zone.
Exactly. Basically, for the same reason, the CM template is so popular. When I wrote about this before, hardcore players argued that the HL template takes about the same amount of time to play.
The CM template takes about the same amount of time to play as the XL+U templates. Look at the reports if you don't believe it - if there isn't a rush on the 2nd or 131 day, the game can drag on until the 2nd month. Off-road paths don't encourage a fast-paced game.
On Jebus, most games are decided in the first battle in the center, which happens around the middle of the 2nd day. There are cases where one player retreats to a corner, but they are rare.
Added 22 minutes ago Dirty_Player
But if someone is afraid of morale, then they should moderate their ambitions and limit themselves to crypts on the first day, and start attacking gnomes on the second.
It's not about being afraid or not. It's about the principle of the strongest move. That is, the skill lies in being able to find the strongest moves in different situations. And the game engine should be designed so that the strongest moves are rewarded.
For example, taking the angel's lair on the 1st week (if the army is nearby) is the strongest move in that situation; refusing to do so is noobish, with or without morale. Morale doesn't reward this move; it can even make it a cause of defeat. This is the main complaint against it.
The only thing is that it's easier to play without it in the sense that you don't have to recalculate and be overly cautious, etc. I completely agree with Leader that this is a degradation; Vik's arguments about casual players are not convincing.
If it were easier, there wouldn't be such a sophisticated battle technique among VT players as there is now. The problem is that the presence of morale actually simplifies the requirements for battle technique - in the most difficult battles, the player simply doesn't engage. And it's not difficult to protect against morale in simple battles.
Many epic battles, such as Alik's "canned" battle or Old Man's water elementals, would not be possible if there were morale. And it is precisely these battles that require the most skill - when there is no morale, but there are many monsters.
If a similar battle were fought with morale, then there would be natural doubts - either the player is really skilled, or they were just lucky that morale didn't trigger. That is, there is no factor of repeatability of achievements, and as a result, no opportunity to learn from them.
In terms of battle technique, Tyraxor is a kind of flagship for VT - in skilled hands, he can break through huge hordes, but in unskilled hands, he quickly loses his army and starts waiting for behemoths. Perhaps the army that is most sensitive to the player's skill. Precisely because the game is played without morale - hitting the wolves is always the result of a player's mistake. If they played with morale, then playing as Tyrax would be like playing Russian roulette.
mr. fish prefers to take them on the 3rd week after building the Capitol.
"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013] "Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014] "Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015] Сам ты фиш (с) :D
You're all talking about hiding angels, but that's not a good example. Angels will always have good morale anyway. Or did you go so far as to reduce the morale of angels as well?
Show your true face when losing. Make sure it`s not ugly.
Neutral creatures generally don't have morale in Warlords.
"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013] "Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014] "Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015] Сам ты фиш (с) :D
The symmetrical Jebus is already made. I will add it to the set soon. Size L or M. But M seems too small, although the respawn points are not that small. Perhaps, for size M, a template with two starting zones instead of 4 should be made.
For Jebus, only the starting zone and the center are relevant. Therefore, 2 zones in each plane are sufficient. Wicc
If it were easier, there wouldn't be such a sophisticated battle technique among VT players as there is now.
What technique are you talking about? Wicc
The problem is that the presence of morale actually simplifies the requirements for battle technique - the player simply doesn't engage in the most difficult battles. And it's not difficult to protect against morale in simple battles.
I understand when you're afraid of morale in the 1st round, from which you can't protect yourself (like in the Angel's lair), but when there is no morale in the entire battle, I can't accept that. Wicc
Many epic battles, such as Alik's "canned" battle or the Old Man's water elementals, would not be possible if there was morale. And it is precisely these battles that require the most skill - when there is no morale, but there are many monsters.
Water elementals don't have morale anyway. And what seems epic with morale doesn't look that great without it. Those battles, where victory is achieved by the fact that the slow unit runs away from the fast single unit, and archers shoot for 50 rounds, should not be encouraged, because this is not a technique, but stupidity! Wicc
If a similar battle was fought with morale, then there are natural doubts - either the player is really good, or he was just lucky that morale didn't trigger.
Wicc
That is, there is no factor of repeatability of achievements, and as a result, no opportunity to learn from them.
I agree with that. But you need to learn not to repeat one-to-one, but to think and assess the outcome of the battle. Wicc
If we played with morale, then playing as Tyras would be like playing Russian roulette.
To gain some advantage, you need to take some risk. For those who prefer a calm game, starting as Gurnisson is a good option. :) LeBron
mr. fish prefers to take them on the 3rd week after building the capitol :)
And at the end of the 3rd week, when the hero reaches level 5. :cool:
Lider1
