Should the starting hero for Necropolis be chosen randomly?

misantrop

16 years ago

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OUTLAW

Necropolis already has enough good starting units, even without any additional ones, although the initial setup certainly plays a big role in this.

Could you elaborate on which units you mean?:smile32:

In reply to misantrop

OUTLAW

16 years ago

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misantrop

Could you elaborate on what advantages they have?:smile32:

1st - Liches. A quite powerful unit of level 5, and if there's also an ambush... it's not a problem to sacrifice 30-40 skeletons for its attack, but with 6 liches on the first line, you can use them just as effectively as a Castle or Rampart with their archers.
2nd
As mentioned above, witches with a special ability can also be a good attacking stack, especially since heroes often come with weak armor.
Don't forget about ambushes...
Vampires with an ambush are devastating; anyone who has played knows this....
3rd
These are Necro Knights. With 120 hit points, and if they are also grouped together....
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In general, I find the above question strange....
Has the esteemed Misantrop played Necropolis often?
It seems like he thinks that besides skeletons, there are no other units to use in this castle.
But in terms of thickness and attack power, these units are not inferior to a Rampart!!!

In reply to OUTLAW

misantrop

16 years ago

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OUTLAW

First – Liches. A quite powerful unit of level 5, and if they also have an ambush… It’s not a problem to sacrifice 30-40 skeletons for them to break through. With 6 Liches on the first level, you can use them just as effectively as Castle or Rampart with their archers.

Second
As mentioned above, witches with a special ability can also be a good offensive stack, especially since heroes often come with weak defenses.
Don’t forget about ambushes…
Vampires with an ambush are devastating; anyone who has played knows this.

Third
These are Necro-Knights. With 120 hit points, and even more if they are upgraded…
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In general, I find the above question strange…
Has the esteemed Misanthrop played Necropolis often?
It seems like he thinks that only skeletons can be used in this castle.
But in terms of defense and offensive power, these units are not inferior to Rampart!!!

To get Liches, you need a Grand Magus, zombies (which may not be built), and vampires. In total, 2-3 days without Liches, and then 3 Liches (and often that’s all you’ll get). Relying on an ambush is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Vala and Yvory or Kir’r with their first-level units accelerate the pace thanks to archers and elves; this is not possible with Necropolis.

Building witches harms you:smile18:. Again, without building zombies from the start, you lose a day on construction, and as a result, you will have few Knights and Liches on the second level.

Vampires without an upgrade:smile18:, see above about ambushes.
Knights are powerful; they are my favorite unit in the game, but they are built at the end of the week. What to use until then?

P.S. I play Necropolis very well. The whole point is that there is no one to use in the early game except skeletons.

Greater Vampires are a different story (I’m for it).

bRitvo4kA

16 years ago

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I agree with Misantrop, he's right. To include vampires in the game, you need a +10% Necromancy boost. As compensation, you could allow all Necromancer heroes to upgrade their Necromancy skill only up to the advanced level (20%). This way, we still get the same 30%, but the Necromancer gets their interesting red unit:smile24:

Friends, let's really bring these bloodsuckers back into the game, support it.
To implement this idea, we need to slightly adjust point 5.3 and remove point 5.17.

As for power, the Necropolis might not be weaker than the Rampart, but in terms of cost...

In reply to misantrop

OUTLAW

16 years ago

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misantrop

To get Liches, you need a Grand Mage, zombies (which may not be built), and vampires. In total, it takes 2-3 days without Liches, and then you have 3 Liches (and often that's all you get). Valya and Ivor, or Kirr, ramp up the pace from the first turn thanks to archers and elves, which is not possible with Necropolis.

:D Those who constantly play Castle and Rampart know that at the start, Valya often doesn't have built archer towers and/or 2 packs of archers, and with the native hero, there may not be any. Ivor has the same situation (and Kirr even more so); he may only get 3-4 elves and no free units from the native hero.
But with Necropolis and the Bone Collector, even without Goshi, you can get 70-90 bones, which is already a big advantage!
And I don't need to teach you advanced players about the tactics of fighting with a pack of skeletons with their native speed :DAdded 7 minutes ago
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misantrop

Building witches hurts yourself :smile18:. Again, without building zombies from the start, you lose a day to construction, and as a result, on the second day, you will have few knights and liches.

Vampires without an upgrade :smile18:, as mentioned above.

This made me smile :rolleyes:
If you play Necropolis well, then saying that un-upgraded vampires with a lair are bad is... I won't comment further....
If you start with a specific unit strategy, then you accordingly adjust the early stage of the game to suit them. This is the case with Shakti, Tiras, and other specialists. How Castle upgrades goblins and dogs for offensive power....For Necropolis, it's not critical to build units with a fort, because the lack of 1-2 cavalry and a few other units is more than compensated for by the skeletons you build in weeks 2-3.....
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The problem is that many people are used to playing only with skeletons....But try playing this faction using all levels of units

Added 18 minutes ago

KostyaN

P.S. When making changes to our overly complex online game rules, remember the main principle: Everything brilliant is simple;

There's nothing complicated in our rules, people!!!
All regular players play on autopilot (this applies to the rules).
It's not the Constitution. 9-10 rules are not difficult to memorize once and for all :D
Am I wrong?
And some new blood will only be beneficial.
The question here is about popularizing the game with Necropolis, not about introducing new innovations on our forum.
Your stubbornness is surprising!!!

In reply to OUTLAW

Psyche_7

16 years ago

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Introducing new players is certainly a good thing. Please forgive my persistence (and noobishness), but allow me to ask (you, for example, esteemed OUTLAW), what is better: to cut back/limit the factor that creates imbalance through rules, or, without doing any of that, simply tolerate the same Necropolis with Galtran? Because by going down the first path, we only impoverish the game. What's next? Will we ban Shakti, Kirr, Valeska...? Or does conservatism prevent us from embracing the new? Anyway, most games will still be played with 3-4 factions... And with a randomizer, we'll get roughly the same number of games for each faction and a more or less balanced experience. Surely, starting with a Necropolis with Galtran shouldn't cost more than 10,000? Again, sorry for the off-topic.

In reply to Psyche_7

OUTLAW

16 years ago

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I think it's pretty clear here... Shakti, Kirr, and so on shouldn't be put in the same category as Galtran.
Shakti might lose more than half of his main stack of troglodytes on ranged units in the first week, but Gosha will replenish his lost skeletons, and maybe even with a surplus...
Most people are clinging to Galtran as a way to play as Necropolis...
Well, if you don't have the skill to play with other heroes for this castle, then leave everything as it is. After all, half of those who voted rarely use Necropolis... Where are the ardent fans of this castle?? Nowhere??
Then continue to remove him...

In reply to OUTLAW

Alex_R

16 years ago

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I voted for the first option because I stick to my "start with all castles randomly" strategy.

In reply to OUTLAW

Дубровин Павел

16 years ago

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OUTLAW

Where are the ardent fans of this faction?? None??
Then keep voting it down...

I don't know how to play as Necromancer myself. But I would play against an opponent, with the condition that Skeletons are not collected and transformed into them, but Vampires can be upgraded.

In reply to OUTLAW

Psyche_7

16 years ago

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OUTLAW

I think it's pretty clear here... Shakti, Kirr, etc., shouldn't be put in the same category as Galtran.

And no one is. The point is that after Galtran is banned, Shakti becomes the hero who is a contender for ban #1, and so on...
Since complex issues are being discussed (some factions are played often, others rarely), a comprehensive approach is needed.
Let's assume we adopt option 3. As a result, Necropolis will be played as often as Inferno or Tower after some time. And so what? Is that the goal?
Many people have subjective views on factions. There are factions that someone constantly excludes (not just Necropolis), and therefore the overall picture won't change much from weakening Necropolis.
In any case, each of the options should be tested, and only then should a final decision be made. But, for example, if we test not only SOD with the proposed changes, but also, for example, TE-light for comparison, who among the supporters of options 1 and 3 will agree to this? It's not about Galtran, but about adherence to traditions/habits and the search for solutions that don't go beyond them.

wariator

16 years ago

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What if we created a sort of weekly indulgence for Necropolis? In other words, prohibit players from excluding it, as a way to encourage more in-depth gameplay with this castle! Then, we could organize, for example, a week dedicated to the Sylvan faction, similar to how the game already features a week for a specific castle's monsters!

bRitvo4kA

16 years ago

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What if we prohibit raising the spellcasting skill above the base level? That is, if a player is offered a choice of skills that includes spellcasting, they must choose a different one. Only when all other skills have been maxed out, and this won't happen before the second month, will they be allowed to raise spellcasting. I think then it won't be possible to gather legions of skeletons. And when there aren't that many skeletons, Galtran's significance will automatically decrease.

In reply to Psyche_7

OUTLAW

16 years ago

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Psyche_7

We are talking about what will happen after Galtran is banned.

No one was planning to ban him... You need to carefully read all the previous comments and understand the essence of the discussion!
We are looking for ways to restore the frequency of playing with Necropolis, which do not necessarily involve excluding certain heroes...
Start with any hero, but not Galtran; if you find him in the tavern, use him.
Well, I'm not going to write the same thing 100 times...
Read above... Everything is explained there, and real options are given...

bRitvo4kA

16 years ago

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Question: what should be done in this case with Isro and Vidomina? Until the necromancy amplifier is built, let them roam around and not develop their spellcasting skills to the expert level. After the amplifier is built, require them and other heroes with advanced spellcasting skills to be dismissed within 2 turns from the day of construction.
Necromancy amplifier + basic spellcasting = 20% more skeletons raised. This seems quite acceptable to me. It will be interesting.

In reply to Psyche_7

Alessandro

16 years ago

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I voted for a random hero for Necropolis. There are two main reasons.
1. Necropolis is almost always excluded. Therefore, it needs to be weakened. Choosing a random hero weakens the castle.
2. This rule applies to HotA (as well as to Conflux). I want the rules of HotA and HotP to be the same (although they are almost identical).