Discussion about Heroes I. — General

Miner

17 years ago

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Ergon

I already asked, but I'll ask again. Is there a way to quickly find out which spells are in the Tower, with level 4 being required, of course.
Or is the only way to collect 20 of each resource. But for that, I might have to play for 10 days, and there's no market. It won't be scouting, but rather a rough pass. Maybe there's a cheat program - I look at the initial save once and that's it. I understand that I'm only interested in 1 spell.
Essentially, this is the only thing that can change the strategy on this map.

You can edit resources, troops, and spells in saved games: http://www.ag.ru/cheats/heroes_of_might_and_magic/#edit
However, cheating in this way is prohibited in tournaments.

Thundax

17 years ago

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We are only talking about finding out as quickly as possible whether it is possible to build a Dim Door.

In reply to Thundax

VDV_forever

17 years ago

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Ergon

I've asked before, but I'll ask again. Is there a way to quickly find out which spells are in the tower, with the 4th level, of course.
Or is the only way to collect 20 of each resource. But for that, I might have to play for 10 days, and there's no market. It won't be scouting, but rather a rough pass. Maybe there's a cheat program - you look at the initial save once and that's it. I understand that I'm only interested in 1 spell.
Essentially, this is the only thing that can change the strategy on this map.

I've been wondering about this question for a long time, but unfortunately, I don't know how to find out which level 4 magic will be built in the castles right away, and I generally doubt that it can be found out in any way other than building it yourself, or making the computer do it. :o
Although I would really like to:rolleyes:

Sincerely, VDV_forever

AlexSpl

17 years ago

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I remember mentioning that there is a 25% chance, despite the usual probability, to avoid negative morale. So, this chance exists only for computer players. Therefore, the probability of negative morale occurring for computer players is:

P(negative) = -m/12 * (1 - 0.25) = -m/16,
which is another confirmation that the computer is cheating :)

Furthermore, the probability of a Djinn's ability appearing is exactly twice as high as stated in various FAQs, and it is 20%.

2VDV_forever: We can introduce the concept of a "game session" (a time interval between starting and ending a game). Indeed, within a single game session, there is a limited number of battle maps for a given stack of monsters on the map. Therefore, for example, it may not be possible to trigger morale for a unit in the first round. But if you restart the game (start a new game session), the number of battle maps changes! When I talk about probabilities, I mean that the player can start as many game sessions as they want.

Thundax

17 years ago

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In the first Heroes of Might and Magic game, the AI is essentially cheating in battles. It's simple: standard heroes, along with some ogres or griffons, can easily defeat even powerful creatures like djinns. Fortunately, in the first game, it's easier to modify events than in the second, so you can still defeat these overly powerful AI heroes.

AlexSpl

17 years ago

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2Ergon: On the other hand, if the computer played fairly, it would lose much faster.

2VDV_forever: I answered your questions, but I forgot those answers at home :) In short, here are the answers to the first two:

1) Yes, they depend on it. You can predict morale and luck drops after a couple of rounds of damage, provided you are already familiar with the battle map;

2) In Fireball's task, luck doesn't necessarily come to the peasants. Quite often, it drops on the archers in the counterattack! Also, dragons can lose morale, and the peasants simply won't survive until their turn. There are also many other possible scenarios: for example, a catapult breaks down the wall in the first round, or gargoyles lose morale after a berserk attack. But you are generally right: there is a limited number of battle maps, and, accordingly, the probability of repeating one of them increases significantly. I assume that the presence of a catapult significantly reduces the number of possible maps. I will try to calculate or at least estimate this number.

In reply to AlexSpl

VDV_forever

17 years ago

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AlexSpl

2VDV_forever: We can introduce the concept of a "game session" (a time interval between starting and ending a game). Indeed, within a single game session, there is a limited number of battle maps for a given stack of monsters on the map. Therefore, for example, it may not be possible to achieve a morale drop for a unit in the first round. But if you restart the game (start a new game session), the number of battle maps changes! When I talk about probabilities, I mean that the player can start as many game sessions as they want.

Spot on! But regarding the number, I doubt it; I assume there are no more than 10 (and maybe even fewer;) ) such different game sessions for one battle. ;) The deeper we dig, the more confusing it becomes. :D
In fact, this is incredibly interesting, and if we ultimately understand the logic behind it, even if only 80%, it will be another very significant discovery for the entire Heroes community interested in Heroes 1. :cool:

Added 4 minutes ago

AlexSpl

2Ergon: On the other hand, if the computer played fairly, it would lose much faster.

2VDV_forever: I answered your questions, but I forgot those answers at home :) In short, here are the answers to the first two:

1) Yes, they depend on it. Morale and luck drops can be predicted based on a couple of damage instances, provided you are already familiar with the given battle map;

2) In Fireball's task, luck does not necessarily come to the peasants. Quite often, it drops on the archers in the counterattack! In addition, dragons can lose morale, and the peasants simply won't survive until their turn. There are also many other possible scenarios: for example, a catapult breaks down the wall in the first round, or gargoyles lose morale after berserk. But you are generally right: there is a limited number of battle maps, and, accordingly, the probability of repeating one of them increases significantly. I assume that the presence of a catapult significantly reduces the number of possible maps. I will try to calculate or at least estimate this number.

I will be looking forward to the extended answer;):smile03:

1) :smile03:
2) It seems that you happened to have a session in which luck did not drop for the peasants. In my case, luck did not drop for the archers and other monsters in the first round in any of the different game sessions. This is what confuses me.
Maybe there is some pattern in the occurrence of certain sessions?:smile04: :smile11:

Sincerely, VDV_forever

AlexSpl

17 years ago

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2VDV_forever: I didn't say that peasants never get lucky. They do, and quite often. I'm just suggesting that you consider that archers can also get lucky in the first round (and they do so quite often)!

By the way, here's an interesting challenge. We could try to calculate the number of battle maps. I'll also try to figure out what the starting value of R depends on. It seems that the luck and morale mechanics in HoMM I are similar to those in Heroes 2, but only in the sense that in "Heroes 2," the battle unfolds in a predetermined way, while in the first game, the player can choose from several (how many is still a mystery) options!

Answer to the fifth question: definitely not.

In reply to AlexSpl

VDV_forever

17 years ago

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AlexSpl

2VDV_forever: I didn't say that peasants don't get lucky. They do, and quite often. I'm just asking you to see that archers can also get lucky in the first round (and they get it quite often too)!

Tomorrow I'll try to get lucky with someone else, especially with archers. But I can record a video that confirms my words about how often peasants get lucky! I'm not arguing, maybe archers get lucky too, but I haven't had that happen yet, maybe I've just been unlucky... I'll try:)

AlexSpl

By the way, here's an interesting task. We can try to count the number of battle maps. I'll also try to figure out what the starting value of R depends on. It seems that the mechanics of luck and morale in HoMM I are similar to those in Heroes 2, but only in "Heroes 2" the battle goes in one direction, while in the first Heroes, the player can choose from several (how many - still a mystery) options!

Judging by everything, it's exactly like that:smile01: And moreover, I'll venture to suggest that this number of sessions is different for battles with wandering monsters and battles with companion heroes! And with companion heroes, this number is significantly smaller.;)

AlexSpl

Answer to the fifth question: definitely not.

Thank goodness:smile20:

Sincerely, VDV_forever

AlexSpl

17 years ago

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Testing the pseudo-random number generation mechanism in Heroes of Might and Magic I (using the task from Fireball as an example).

During one game session, 72 battles were played. You can see the statistics in the screenshot. It is worth noting an interesting fact: the battle maps appeared in a strictly cyclical order, and the end of each cycle was accompanied by a new map. That is, the battle maps appeared in the following order (approximately, since I don't remember from which battle the cycle started):
1} 2 1 2} 3 1 2 3} 4 1 2 3 4} 5 1 2 3 4 5} 6 1 2 3 4 5 6} 7, etc.
I marked the end of the cycle with a curly bracket.
I would also like to note that in this game session, the morale bonus never appeared for the Gargoyles, although it did appear in other sessions.

And here, a new session started with a map that never appeared in the old one!

2VDV_forever: Battle map #11 in this game session appeared only after 71 attempts! So, what about the repetition? :p

Edit: The last line should be read as: 16 07, bottom, 27-19. The rest is correct.

I can't resist adding: I just found a session where the battle maps do not repeat, i.e., each time a NEW one appears! Testing continues :)

AlexSpl

17 years ago

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The nature of the phenomenon where peasants get lucky against a Fireball lies in the fact that the game assigns the same value for luck after the hero flees the battlefield in the second round. I can assert that luck can be obtained in this way, at most, on the second attempt.

Now, I suggest you conduct a test: how many times out of 10 will the peasants get lucky if you don't flee the battlefield each time to start the battle again, but instead exit the game and reload it?

During the testing process, I managed to get the morale bonus for the spearmen. Let's assume that in this task, the decisive factor is the morale bonus for the spearmen, and not the luck of the peasants. How many times out of 10 will you be able to get the morale bonus for the spearmen? Imagine that the author insists on this description (morale bonus for the spearmen, period).

In reply to AlexSpl

VDV_forever

17 years ago

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Good day, dear AlexSPl! Please allow me to thank you for your assistance in studying such an important issue in Heroes 1, as morality, luck, and damage. Today, I set aside a couple of hours at work and conducted 3 sessions (reloading the game by exiting and re-entering) with 10 battles each (15 in the 3rd), using direct battles without any software assistance (LaOracle). Unfortunately, I didn't have enough time for the rest. But even with this data, it's becoming interesting; I suggest you take a look. My material is also not finished, but it may be of some interest to our common cause! ;) Indeed, morality, luck, and damage have one of the most complex patterns to understand. Specifically, in this case, which we are testing (thanks to Fireball!), I can say with a high degree of certainty that, in addition to the session itself, the chance of luck for peasants can be determined by the damage inflicted by the catapult on archers. I apologize for the messy handwriting; I didn't have time to tidy it up. I hope you can make sense of it :o I hope you understand my scribbles in the table :o P.S. I plan to refine all of this and conduct at least 10 sessions with 20 battles each, and then I will send you the results by email. Sincerely, VDV_forever

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AlexSpl

17 years ago

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2VDV_forever: So, we were doing the same thing at work :)
Thanks for the tests. I'll study them.

Please consider my suggestion to implement morale for spearmen!

(thanks Fireball!)

Oh yeah! Fireball found a real gem!

In reply to AlexSpl

VDV_forever

17 years ago

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AlexSpl

2VDV_forever: So, we were doing the same thing at work :)
Thanks for the tests. I'll study them.

Thanks to you too, likewise;)

AlexSpl

Be sure to consider my suggestion to implement a morale system for spearmen!

We should deal with the peasants first, but we'll get to the spearmen too, the main thing is to keep digging, and we will definitely find something...:)

AlexSpl

Oh yes! Fireball found a real gem!

:smile54:

Sincerely, VDV_forever

AlexSpl

17 years ago

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2VDV_forever: I'll try to anticipate the results of your tests:
1) The first battle of a session can be anything (any damage, any morale and luck for anyone);
2) In all other battles, the damage will be fixed (the same from battle to battle), and luck will only come to the peasants at the end of the first round.

I suspect that both you and I are testing in roughly the same way: we look to see who will get luck/morale (in particular, we expect luck for the peasants), and then, at the beginning of the second round, we run away and reload. By doing this, we will constantly catch the peasants getting luck, starting from the second battle of any session! The game really does record(!) R after running away!

For the sake of a clean experiment, I recommend starting a new session each time, or at least not running away while the cavalry is moving. Then the probability of the peasants getting luck should decrease sharply. And with the current approach, it will be 100%, starting from the second battle of any session.

I also found the upper limit of the number of possible battle maps with fixed player actions - 1000.

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