Discussion about ATB in Heroes of Might and Magic V. — General

In reply to Phoenix_1973

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Registered: 11/25/2005 7:59 AM UTC

Posts: 530

3/6/2006 9:14 AM UTC #16

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Phoenix_1973

Regarding countering the Druid – I don't see how the Druid is better (in PvP, of course; as neutral units, Hydras are definitely easier to eliminate). 8 Elder Druids (weekly growth from the castle) = 264 HP, 6 Chaos Hydras (weekly growth) = 600 HP + regeneration. So, which is better?

The Druid has an initiative of 10, Hydras have 8. 6 stacks of one Druid each will kill 6 Hydras in one turn, and they won't be able to do anything.

Phoenix_1973

And with an Expert Sorcerer, the initiative is approximately 13, I checked empirically.

On the first turn, it's the same as for everyone else. The Sorcerer only works after you start casting spells.
And along the same lines. The Elves have a hero with a specialization in Attack and Defense. Have you seen him in action at level 10? The questions answer themselves. He can only be defeated by a Sufi from the Academy.
But if we're being nitpicky.
What I don't like about Attack and Defense is that the effects of Attack and Defense are different for + and -. The effects should be the same in either direction. And what I dislike most is the random placement before the battle. Because of this, the outcome of the battle is ALWAYS random. If I have Sprites, they should go first, not Druids and Elves (with initiatives of 15 and 10, respectively).
I had a long debate with Dion on the Nival forum about the imbalance of Attack and Defense. And my opinion only strengthened after the beta.

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Katrine
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In reply to Katrine

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Registered: 2/19/2006 11:57 AM UTC

Posts: 101

3/6/2006 11:41 AM UTC #17

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The druids' initiative of 10 versus 8 hydras. 6 stacks of one druid each will kill 6 hydras in one turn, and they won't be able to do anything. And will our hero be sleeping at this time? He acts on the first turn, just like everyone else. Sorceress only works after you start casting spells. And another example. The Elves have a hero specializing in attack value. Have you seen him in action at level 10? The questions answer themselves. He can only be killed by a Sufi from the Academy. A counter-question: have you seen Reyelag? The one who specializes in lowering initiative.

In reply to Phoenix_1973

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Registered: 11/25/2005 7:59 AM UTC

Posts: 530

3/6/2006 11:53 AM UTC #18

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Phoenix_1973

Will our hero be sleeping at this time?

He will. He'll get the last turn randomly.:)

Phoenix_1973

Counter-question: have you seen Reyelag? The one who specializes in reducing initiative.

I don't remember... What are his starting skills?

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Katrine
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In reply to Katrine

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Registered: 2/19/2006 11:57 AM UTC

Posts: 101

3/6/2006 12:20 PM UTC #19

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Katrine

It will happen. He'll get the last turn randomly.:)

I've never encountered a situation where a hero goes last. Does it happen to you often?

I don't remember... What are the starting skills?

basic invocation + basic defence + toughness (+2 HP to units)

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Registered: 2/25/2006 7:11 AM UTC

Posts: 1,476

3/6/2006 1:16 PM UTC #20

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Regarding the scale itself: something similar, as far as I remember, was in the second Grandia, only there you could land a critical hit, and the "initiative" would drop.

In reply to Night

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Registered: 11/23/2005 4:41 AM UTC

Posts: 71

3/9/2006 5:57 AM UTC #21

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I laughed for a long time...
So, it turns out, this is what it's really like:
It's amazing that NWC didn't think to add an element to the interface that shows the order in which creatures will take their turns. After all, this immediately changes the player's approach, allowing them to plan multi-turn combinations almost like in chess.
This is about the ATB scale. It turns out it helps with planning, otherwise, it was hard to figure out...

In reply to ДАК

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Registered: 11/25/2005 7:59 AM UTC

Posts: 530

3/9/2006 6:02 AM UTC #22

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DAK

I laughed for a long time...
Turns out, it's actually like this:
It's amazing that NWC didn't think to add an element to the interface that shows the order in which creatures will take their turns. Because this immediately changes the player's approach, allowing them to plan multi-turn combinations almost like in chess.
This is about the ATB scale. It turns out that it helps with planning, otherwise, it was hard to figure out...

I was lying here:D What a joke... Who came up with such a gem? The person who wrote THIS definitely never played Heroes 5 or any other installment. Because planning multi-turn combinations and even almost like in chess is not only impossible with ATB, but it's also unrealistic in theory.
The closer the release, the sadder it gets...

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Katrine
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In reply to Katrine

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Registered: 11/23/2005 4:41 AM UTC

Posts: 71

3/9/2006 6:21 AM UTC #23

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Katrine

I was lying down:D What a joke... Who came up with such a gem? Whoever wrote THIS definitely never played Heroes 5 or any other game in the series. Because planning multi-step combinations and doing it almost like in chess is not only impossible with the AI, but it's also theoretically unrealistic.
The closer the release date, the sadder it gets...

This is from the preview on "Navigator of the Gaming World."
http://www.nival.com/homm5_ru/pressa/prew/4383/
But now, you can SEE it.
Before, it wasn't visible... It's a VIRTUE, you see.

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Registered: 2/7/2006 6:56 AM UTC

Posts: 277

3/9/2006 6:56 AM UTC #24

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I didn't think I'd live to see this. Although, if you look closely, everything makes sense. There were a couple of people on the development team who had never heard of Heroes before, and as a result, everything they were entrusted with was horribly botched. This explains the absurd mistakes in what is otherwise a good game. Otherwise, I simply don't know how to explain these things.

Да будет так

In reply to GvozD

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Registered: 1/23/2006 12:35 PM UTC

Posts: 1,656

3/9/2006 12:36 PM UTC #25

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DAK

It wasn't noticeable before... It's a FEATURE, darn it.

I also think it's a feature... Even now, playing Heroes 3, I wouldn't say it's missing! It's just a new addition... if it really doesn't appeal to people, I hope the developers will consider making it optional (meaning the interface).

С уважением, Vlad

HeroesWorld: В контакте
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In reply to Vlad

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Registered: 2/19/2006 11:57 AM UTC

Posts: 101

3/9/2006 1:47 PM UTC #26

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I'm joining in on the laughter regarding this post :D. Not because I dislike ATB, quite the contrary. It's just that it has nothing to do with chess; it's closer to poker, especially the initial randomness.

In reply to Phoenix_1973

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Registered: 3/6/2006 4:37 PM UTC

Posts: 329

3/9/2006 10:59 PM UTC #27

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Chess is understandable (it's just nonsense), but frankly, I don't see much similarity with poker either...

Плоды размышлений были съедены червями сомнения...

In reply to Vlad

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Registered: 11/25/2005 7:59 AM UTC

Posts: 530

3/10/2006 5:46 AM UTC #28

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Xaker

I also think that this is a good thing...

It seemed to me that it was said (written) with irony.
And in general, an element that shows in what order the creatures will move is definitely something that strategies have been lacking:D
But pay attention, it can be disabled during the battle:D :D by replacing it with a damage log.
This is also a drawback of ATB because such an element should not exist, but playing without it is not even like poker...

Хронология вселенной Might and Magic
Katrine
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In reply to Katrine

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Registered: 1/23/2006 12:35 PM UTC

Posts: 1,656

3/12/2006 5:06 AM UTC #29

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Katrine

It seemed to me that it was said (written) with irony.
And in general, the element showing the order in which creatures will move is definitely something that strategies have been lacking:D
But pay attention, it can be disabled during battle:D :D by replacing it with a damage display.
This is also a drawback of ATV because such an element should not exist, but playing without it is not even poker...

Are you talking about my post when you mention irony?
And since it can be turned off, what's wrong with the initiative system? Even in Heroes of Might and Magic III, units didn't always move strictly in turn; some moved first, others in the middle... so it's basically the same thing... (imo)

С уважением, Vlad

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Registered: 2/7/2006 6:56 AM UTC

Posts: 277

3/15/2006 8:23 AM UTC #30

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I think ATB is great. It’s great in every way. Balancing it would be great, and if it’s balanced, playing it will be great; the idea itself is great. Finally, chess is leaving the game. Honestly, I would like to see a real battle system in Heroes, similar to Rome. But I suspect I’m in a small minority and risk being criticized by hardcore fans, so I ask the hardcore fans to forget they read this post and let’s all live in peace (I am absolutely peaceful).

Да будет так

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