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Overly strict moderators where they shouldn't be, while posts that clearly belong in another section go unnoticed :confused:
Wlk777
Posts from Round table
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Wlk777
Wicc
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Hello? Garage? Are you even reading what I'm writing? :confused: Necro troops are the weakest in mass battles; anyone who disagrees is a total noob at Heroes (I'm talking about SoD). Just because the templates they write often turn out to be convenient for the necro doesn't mean it has unconditional strength as a castle.
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[/U] These numbers amused me :D What are they for? :confused:
Oelm
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Alright, I agree, if you can prove that I wrote something incorrectly.
Evidence, if you're interested, can be sent via private message, preferably not today.
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Hey, garage, are you even reading what I'm writing? :confused:
Necro troops are the weakest in mass fights, anyone who disagrees is a total noob in Heroes (I'm talking about SoD).
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[/U] Those numbers amused me :D What are they for? :confused:
1) Castle - 6/7 matches VICC's data on main heroes
2) Rampart - 6 vs 7/8 for main hero
3) Tower - 6, matches
4) Inferno - 5 (most often scout heroes are sped up on imps, although it depends on the player, while 6-8 hounds in Fiona's or Marius's army add quite a bit of either striking power or meat where you need to hold out) vs 7 for main hero
5) Necro - 5 vs 6
6) Dungeon - 6, matches
7) Stronghold - 5 (speed-up is mainly on goblins, since 5-6 extra hobgoblins for the main hero noticeably make a difference and prevent losing them)
8) Fortress - 9, matches
9) Conflux - 7, matches
Summary: Necro is indeed at the bottom for scout heroes, but it's not alone there; Fortress is above everyone (scout heroes have roughly 200 extra movement points every day compared to the same Stronghold or Necro).
Wlk777
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Just think about it, maybe you'll figure it out :)
1. Castle. Stables in the castle. Minimum speed 6-7.
2. Rampart. Kiras. No question.
3. Barbarian - for example, I often have Gurny running at 112-113 already with group movement. This is very convenient and effective :cool:.
4. Swamp. Speed 9, or even 13 (it's not that rare to need to upgrade snakes in the first week, and it's a must in the second).
5. Inferno. Ifrits at 113-114, speed 9.
6. Conflux. Speed is often 7 from the start, and all horses have it. In the second week, often birds.
Heroes from these castles almost always run much faster than Necropolis heroes in real conditions. Fact.
Furthermore, Tower and Dungeon, these are not always faster than Necropolis, but often, Dungeon also has Gurny, by the way.
And the Necropolis has to run with its native speed of 6 in the first week and without bonuses, and in the second week, a maximum of 9, and even then, if the hero doesn't fall behind the chain, then either skeletons are discarded or they move very slowly. Any objections? :cool:
Added 9 minutes ago
If we are considering a SINGLE unit, then the Necropolis troops are NOT the STRONGEST, but they are definitely not the weakest! And since you are considering mass battles in SoD, in the second week, with average-weak distributions, Galran has about 500 skeletons even on CMs (this is by days 123-124), and it is almost impossible to break through this without a lot of luck with hives/cons. Judging by your sharp and unfounded statements, I only see a "complete noob" in you.
Added 6 minutes ago
Do you even read what I write? :) I'm not talking about the unconditional strength of the castle (by the way, what is that?), but about the strength of the castle in relation to specific game conditions.
The Necropolis is generally the strongest castle.
Alex_R
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Necro with scout heroes is the worst, and that's a fact, because the main damage stack and the subsequent raising of skeletons (UNUPGRADED) is 4 speed for scout heroes and 5 for Galthran. Moreover, if you don't come across a Griffin Conservatory by weeks 1-2-6, then the maximum speed for the main hero or anyone else is 7 !!!
Of course, sometimes the horses are already upgraded, but definitely not by week 1-2-1... especially the very fact of obtaining skeletons complicates the speed-boosting trick — you need a more thorough system of supporting the main hero with scouts, and still have to drag the main stack at 4 speed, especially considering that nothing worse or equal to this exists in other towns.
And in other towns, such speed (independent of secondary skills or conservatories) is more common by the second week:
Castle 9-12 but + stable
Rampart 13
Tower 11
Inferno 13
Fortress 13
Dungeon 11
Stronghold 11
Conflux 15
P.S. there is stuff to read and it lifts the mood, just without name-calling... learn restraint from Wicc :)
Of course, sometimes the horses are already upgraded, but definitely not by week 1-2-1... especially the very fact of obtaining skeletons complicates the speed-boosting trick — you need a more thorough system of supporting the main hero with scouts, and still have to drag the main stack at 4 speed, especially considering that nothing worse or equal to this exists in other towns.
And in other towns, such speed (independent of secondary skills or conservatories) is more common by the second week:
Castle 9-12 but + stable
Rampart 13
Tower 11
Inferno 13
Fortress 13
Dungeon 11
Stronghold 11
Conflux 15
P.S. there is stuff to read and it lifts the mood, just without name-calling... learn restraint from Wicc :)
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The banquet continues:
4. Barbarian. The immediate difficulty here is which settings to play with. If using the object disablement that balances territory types by content, then the barb gets as much money on respawn as others (in the original it's less). The game doesn't necessarily become noticeably stronger, but rather more stable; the chances of hitting a financial dead end drop rapidly.
1) Starting breakthrough power is huge and versatile. But it's difficult to manage; losing wolves is easier than losing skeletons or troglodytes. And then the game turns into torture. Plus, unlike the castles of the first three, the barb has wide opportunities to open a second front as early as week 1 — birds+orcs (though birds are usually brought to papa on day 2), ogres+orcs, ogres+behemoths, ogres+cyclopes, etc.
2) Non-bonus power is average. In large hives, flies often attack the wolves themselves, and the barbarian army isn't designed to be hit — weak unit defense and low hero defense stats.
And in large castles, hitting griffins with wolves is inconvenient (it's hard to remove the retaliation). That is, you either need external dwelling wolves/birds, or money for behemoths in the Castle. With one external dwelling of wolves and a well-leveled Tiras, you can chop down a stack of griffins from the first hit on week 2 in a three-castle setup (or leave only crumbs). If nothing remarkable was distributed, then the barb has no significant advantage over other castles in developing castles/hives.
3) In Dragon Utopia there is again a problem — the integrity of the wolves. Dragons love to hit them. You need to calculate forces precisely so that dragons hit the "food" and not the wolves. There were times when I didn't take wolves into Dragon Utopia if the rest of the power was sufficient.
4) Speed is above average — Tiras runs with 9 speed when accelerating, and the chances for speed skills are decent; the only thing that usually doesn't work is navigation — only a 4 point chance for it (swamp-dwellers, for example, have 8).
As a result, you get a specific castle that requires experience, especially in handling wolves. If you're not used to it, it's easy to lose them. Plus, overall the army isn't particularly "meta," being more oriented toward hitting first, which doesn't always happen (mass haste is very desirable, and barbarians are given it quite often). Therefore, only 4th place; Flax turns out to be somewhat more stable and powerful.
Among additional pluses, I can note a very flexible build-up; there are many options depending on the amount of resources and the range of tasks being solved.
Continuation tomorrow ...
1) Yes, constant problems with losing wolves because neutrals often trigger morale and hit specifically the wolves. But you get used to it, and I consider finishing the week with 23-28 wolves to be normal. From my vast experience playing as barbarians, I disagree with WICC about opening a second front regarding bigs: in the last 20 games on the 8mm template, I haven't placed bigs once, although it should be noted that I always played without balancing respawn content.
2) Hives... Only today did I take a hive of 8 vives at 117. Army: 29 wolves, 4 orcs, 1+1+1 goblins, 1 bird, 6 pikemen. 26 wolves survived. No armor, no magic, stats 11-3. It's easier to take with three birds, although a couple will fall. So in general, taking hives on the second is normal with a 1-5 build-up in Castle (I consider this the most optimal build for buying up at 121). And 12 ogremages in Dragon Utopia on the second hold the hit perfectly! In the case of an external dwelling, 21 ogremages in Dragon Utopia show significant power.
3) In the penultimate game as a barb, I took Dragon Utopia on the second: 7 anels, 44 wolves, 45 harpies, 50 imps and single goblins. The wolves weren't touched. I often notice that wolves aren't loved to be hit in Dragon Utopia as much, compared to nagas or psychos.
4) Just today I was finally offered nav, but as a choice together with scouting. :( So Tiras has troubles with nav, but on the other hand, there is a very high chance for speedy!
I disagree with Flax in third place! I think Inferno will be more powerful. But about that next time; apparently, I'll be supplementing WICC again :o .
Alex_R
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In large-scale battles with standard units, the Necropolis is the weakest Castle; those who doubt can verify this by playing Tactical Corners, for example:rolleyes:. My statements are substantiated, unlike yours; read the thread about reports, and you will rarely find 500 skeletons on levels 123-124.
However, the example of a duel on Tactical Corners is not very good, as there is a loophole if one of the Castles is the Necropolis. ;)
Regarding 500 skeletons on the second level, it does happen, but more often towards the end of the second or the beginning of the third week, as the standard plan is to have 250 skeletons per week, increasing over time.
In general, it is always difficult to play against the Necropolis, as you cannot defend, but rushing is not always successful... plus, they have immunity to Berserk and an easily accessible resurrection spell. It's not for nothing that they nerfed it. :)
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What is wrong with you, do you read every other word or does it just not click what I wrote? :confused: In MASS battles using native units, Necro is the weakest castle; those who doubt this can see for themselves by playing Tactical Corners, for example :rolleyes:. My statements are justified, unlike yours. Read the thread about reports—you'll find 500 skeletons on 123-124 extremely rarely (if we are talking about SoD again, you guys really should stop pushing arguments that relate to a different section); usually, this happens almost toward the end of the month, which is a fact. So while I might be blunt, everything I say is fully justified.
Only Tactical Corner can partially confirm your words! While SMs and especially 8mm will confirm mine. Around 500 skeletons on 123-124 is normal for strong players. Personally, in SoD at a gaming lounge 2.5 years ago (the last time I played as NECRO in SoD), I confirmed this on SMs (in a tournament with witnesses). I remember in that game there was an encounter on 125; I had over 600 skeletons there, and as soon as I attacked the opponent, he surrendered immediately. As far as I saw the saves from the HW vs HB TOURNAMENT between Pit and Samurai, Pit in the third game (in which he agreed to a draw despite his victory :) ) had something like 500 skeletons on the second day (by the way, without Necro castles or their upgrades!!!). For some reason, Pit never posted those saves for general access on the forum :confused: so that everyone could see them now. And as for players having 500 skeletons in reports only by the end of the month—either they aren't the strongest players, or those are isolated circumstances. ;)
Alex_R
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Today I managed to capture a Hive on level 8, week 117. Army: 29 wolves, 4 orcs, 1+1+1 goblin, 1 bird, 6 pikemen. 26 wolves survived. No armor, no magic, stats 11-3.
5 snakes with 12 hit points each are only attacked by wolves, and it's doubtful that all 12 will die in one hit - 1-2 might survive after the first hit and die in the second - and then it gets even worse! But let's assume that 9+3 were killed and then wolves finished them off in 5 rounds - which means you received counterattacks from 12-14 snakes.
But how will the hero survive for 5 rounds, if intuitively it lasts a maximum of 2 rounds, and even that's not certain:
3 hits on single units
2 on orcs
2 on the bird
2 on pikemen
total 9 (5 in the first round and 4 in the second... one stack is missing, and the wolves will finish off the second)
In the 3rd round, 3 stacks of snakes against wolves.... how?
There probably wasn't any morale involved - but still, it's a tough battle!
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Castle 9-12 plus a stable
Rampart 13
Tower 11
Inferno 13
Swamp 13
Dungeon 11
Stronghold 11
Conflux 15
Alex_R
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Having a speed higher than 11 doesn't matter if your slowest unit is slower than that;).
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the technique of taking it with such losses is a bit unclear :smile32:
5 stacks of 12 [serpents] each are taken only by wolves, and it's doubtful that all 12 will die in the first hit — 1-2 might survive the first hit and die on the second — and then it gets even worse! But let's say 9+3 were killed next, and you finished them with wolves in 5 rounds — meaning you took return attacks from 12-14 serpents.
But how does the Ogre hold out for 5 rounds, if intuitively it lasts for a maximum of 2 rounds and even that's not guaranteed:
3 hits on the Peasants
2 on the Orcs
2 on the Bird
2 on the Pikemen
total 9 (5 in the first round and 4 in the second ... one stack is missing and the wolves will kill the second)
in the 3rd round, 3 stacks of serpents against wolves .... how?
Probably didn't happen without morale — but still the battle is creamy!
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but 11 [speed] is available to anyone who wants it, and for Necropolis it's from 7 to 9 :) the difference really matters
Alex_R
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Oh-oh... instead of one goblin, there was a bear from the external dwelling, my bad. I really forgot about him, don't judge too harshly, I'm already ashamed :(. Without him, I wouldn't have dared to enter the Hive with such an army. The bear, of course, also survived.
By the way, going into such a Dragon Fly Hive with a bear external dwelling on day 117 is a very risky move, when on the next 1-2 days a scout hero with 2-5 bears might capture it with a loss of a few goblin units or other cannon fodder from a newly purchased hero.
Especially since it was a Horde, which means there could be up to 18 in a stack, and then it's a definite loss. :confused:
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Here's an example of me taking on a level 113 "can" (referring to a difficult challenge) in the TE (The Eastern Expansion) version: