Level 8 - :) or :( — New ideas.

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Registered: 11/3/2008 9:34 AM UTC

Posts: 257

11/9/2008 6:53 AM UTC #1

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Hello, dear forum members:smile02:
Perhaps this isn't such an important topic, but I'm still curious about your opinion: would you be interested in having each faction in Heroes of Might and Magic V have 8 tiers of creatures? NOT like in Warlords, meaning the STRONGEST creature would be a regular unit, and in all factions, the powerful units would be different. If you're against it, please explain why.:confused:
:smile43: There's another, more realistic option: in the end, just add an eighth slot for a unit; we need to diversify battles and hero armies somehow!
: ) Soon, I'll post the creatures that would need to be added, and you can come up with your own...

Sincerely, Wood Elf:smile20:

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Registered: 7/10/2008 3:04 PM UTC

Posts: 4,372

11/9/2008 7:09 AM UTC #2

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The STRONGEST creature, but as a regular unit, and in all factions, it's powerful in different ways.

Imbalance. Why should it be weaker for some?

Just add an eighth slot for a unit; we need to diversify battles and heroes' armies somehow!

But why again? Seven are enough.

Soon I will post the creatures that should have been added.

It would be interesting to see them; I'm waiting.:)

Tomorrow holds no promises
Except the ones we've made

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Registered: 6/13/2007 6:03 PM UTC

Posts: 4,711

11/9/2008 7:52 AM UTC #3

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I don't like the idea that this will change anything. Perhaps it could be implemented as some kind of neutral unit, like Azure Dragons... in general, there is already one 8th-level unit in the game – the Avatar of Death, Arantir.

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In reply to Wistrit

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Registered: 11/3/2008 9:34 AM UTC

Posts: 257

11/9/2008 7:41 PM UTC #4

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WisTrit;205521

Imbalance. Why should some be weaker?
:smile39:
No, no, just suppose that in Dungeon, the creatures are TOO strong, there is no so-called cannon fodder, so you could add someone weaker than the Imps, for example, Troglodytes, they won't be very strong, but they can harass the enemy and run pretty fast.
Troglodyte (man-amphibian)
Reptilid (man-lizard)
Hell Troglodyte (fiery)
All units are infantry, they poison or set on fire upon attack, have fast speed and good initiative.
Growth +17
I understand that elves are not very numerous in caves, but besides them, there should be someone else there.

Added after 56 seconds
Amaranth;205528I don't like the idea, what will it change? Only in the form of some neutrals, in the form of azure dragons... in general, there is one 8th-level unit in the game - Avatar of Death Arantir.

I'm not saying that there should be an 8th level, by default it will be the usual 7th, it's just that the creatures in the city are divided into eight levels.

:smile03: Sylvan - definitely add riders (on pegasi and mounted archers, stronger than a unicorn, weaker than an ent)
:smile32: Academy - where are the beloved nagas? (weaker than a rakshasa)
:confused: Dungeon - troglodytes or medusas???
Stronghold - ... harpies (weaker than an orc)!!!:smile31:
Inferno - of course, ifrits (stronger than nightmares)...:mad:
Necropolis - black knights, no question (weaker than a bone dragon):smile24:
Fortress - ... but here's the catch, I think it would be worth adding female warriors, hunters (grade), valkyries (alt-grade).
Haven - ... pikemen? (crusaders and halberdiers):smile32:

: ) Thus, seeing how many mods are trying to replace the original (turning undead into death knights, etc.), I would like all of them to remain, and we would finally get those beloved creatures from the third game or new ones, without sacrificing others.

Added after 15 minutes
Well, why again? Seven is enough.

And have you often encountered a situation where a hundred neutrals or another upgrade wanted to join your great army, and you often had to choose:(

I'm not arguing that you can add an eighth slot as a reserve.:o

Стрелы истинного рейнджера не знают промаха
и разят ненавистных врагов королевства...:smile13:

In reply to WoodElf

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Registered: 7/10/2008 3:04 PM UTC

Posts: 4,372

11/9/2008 7:58 PM UTC #5

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it's just that in Dungeon, the creatures are TOO strong, there's no so-called "cannon fodder."

They are strong, but they are few in number. Everything is in the finest proportions.
and if Dungeon has:

add someone weaker than the Imps

and Necropolis has:

Black Knights, no question (weaker than the Bone Dragon)

then that will be it, the imbalance. And a severe one, because Necromancers already have a lot of strong units and nowhere to go.

Have you often encountered a situation where a hundred neutral creatures or creatures of another upgrade wanted to join your great army, and you often had to choose?

This is rare in Heroes 5. But I don't have to choose alone, everyone is on equal footing. ;)
I usually have at least 3 reserve slots, and more often five if I'm playing as Dungeon.

Tomorrow holds no promises
Except the ones we've made

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Registered: 11/3/2008 9:34 AM UTC

Posts: 257

11/9/2008 8:28 PM UTC #6

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Do you think that undead are stronger than knights or witches? Black Knights will fix that. And is it not an imbalance that a bone dragon is equal in strength to half a green dragon? As for the second answer... it's nonsense. Everything changed with alt-upgrades, especially when you're playing on a low difficulty level, and 300 militia join you – it's a pity to let them go... because you can get them to the city and leave them to guard it. In King's Bounty, reserves didn't interfere, even though there was nothing to guard there... Well, I don't know about you, but in the League of Shadows, I always take: assassins, archers, hags, provost riders, shadow lords, dragons, and sometimes night queens. So, the slots are almost always filled.

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That is, everyone wants the factions to remain unchanged? Then why is WoG more popular than the original?

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It's been a long time since the races needed to be diversified somehow. With mods? But then you have to sacrifice other, also useful, units...

Стрелы истинного рейнджера не знают промаха
и разят ненавистных врагов королевства...:smile13:

In reply to WoodElf

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Registered: 7/10/2008 3:04 PM UTC

Posts: 4,372

11/9/2008 8:34 PM UTC #7

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Do you think that Undead are stronger than Knights or Warlocks?

Well, in a 1-on-1 fight, they definitely have the advantage ;)
In my opinion, Undead is one of the strongest factions at level 6.

Isn't it an imbalance that a Bone Dragon is equal in strength to half a Green Dragon?

First, there are 3 Bone Dragons. Second, Bone Dragons aren't twice as weak, maybe 30% weaker. Third, Bone Dragons inflict Curse and Grief! :)
They are no worse... and under certain circumstances, they might even be better.

Again, it's rare to reach day 100... but I think that 300 peasants on day 100 isn't such a large army. It's better to gain experience from them.

When you have money, of course, you buy everyone too :)
But if the enemy also buys everyone, then they won't have room for an additional army either.
And then there won't be enough space in the eighth slot... should we make a ninth? and then a tenth?

Then why is WoG more popular than the original?

It's not more popular.

It's long overdue to diversify the races somehow.

They are self-sufficient.

Tomorrow holds no promises
Except the ones we've made

In reply to WoodElf

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Registered: 5/5/2007 2:19 PM UTC

Posts: 585

11/9/2008 8:44 PM UTC #8

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WoodElf;205613

Isn't it an imbalance that a bone dragon is equal in strength to half of a green dragon?

WisTrit said almost everything; I'll just add that all the flaws of the undead (mainly the dragons) are corrected by necromancy, which provides liches, vampires, and undead...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: in good quantities)))

Ваши интересы и учеба\работа

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Registered: 11/3/2008 9:34 AM UTC

Posts: 257

11/9/2008 8:56 PM UTC #9

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Don't rush it; the damage is high, but the speed is low. Knights have a charge attack, speed 7, and 5 less health. It's stronger... definitely stronger than a Rakshasa, a Cave Demon, and even a Wyvern. I don't see anything particularly useful about them... This is the WEAKEST unit of level 6; if you don't believe me, check the statistics in the manual. A Lord always hits and kills one enemy, while the Herald has an activated ability... And 300 militia are twice as good as 300 peasants; let them stay in the city (and pay taxes; why kill them?). The growth rate of a Bone Dragon is the same as for all others. You just need to build a castle and a building that gives +1. If you didn't need to build a castle, the growth rate would be 1, not 2. The green units don't need anything; they have a speed of 8, 50% more damage, 200 health, and high initiative; they hit two at a time. So, one green unit is equal to one and a half Bone Dragons (okay, not two). Special abilities are NOT the reason for the weakness of creatures! True luck can't be ruled out!

Стрелы истинного рейнджера не знают промаха
и разят ненавистных врагов королевства...:smile13:

In reply to WoodElf

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Registered: 7/10/2008 3:04 PM UTC

Posts: 4,372

11/9/2008 9:18 PM UTC #10

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Nyu is good :)

Don't rush, the damage is high, but the speed is low.

I rarely rush with Necromancers; I usually wait for the opponent to come to me. Death Grip is not available to Knights. Rakshasas are also good, but again, it depends on the circumstances; they also have low initiative and speed.
A Cave Demon, when attacking, can receive damage in return, and Devastating Blow removes positive spells.

I don't see anything useful in them...

I do ;)

And 300 MILITIA are twice as good as 300 PEASANTS; let them stay in the city (and pay taxes; why kill them?)

How often do you encounter 300 militia ready to join you?
And imagine the enemy is in a similar situation? They are in the same position.

The Bone Dragon's growth is the same as everyone else's. You just need to build a Castle and a building that gives +1. If you didn't need to build a Castle, the growth would be 1, not 2.

It's the same, 2 with the Castle, and a building that gives +1, totaling 3.
Green ones have 2.

speed 8, 50% more damage, 200 health, and high initiative, they attack two at once.

Green ones, when biting Bone Dragons, will either receive a curse that lowers their attack or Despair (which is worse). Bone Dragons have 160 health, initiative 11 to 14. Yes, they will arrive and meet the undead.

So, one green one is equal to one and a half Bone Dragons (okay, not two).

Well, there are 3 of them :)

SPECIAL ABILITIES ARE NOT THE REASON FOR THE WEAKNESS OF CREATURES! TRUE LUCK CANNOT BE IGNORED!

The Shriek of Horror also cannot be ignored ;)

Tomorrow holds no promises
Except the ones we've made

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Registered: 11/3/2008 9:34 AM UTC

Posts: 257

11/10/2008 5:52 AM UTC #11

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The "Cry of Horror" ability is weak because it reduces morale, but some creatures have positive morale, so which is better: always dealing double damage or causing enemies to skip their turns? "Spell Penetration" is also a great ability, but mages aren't weak at all.
And imbalance is an inevitable force, a senseless absurdity; the creatures of the Empire aren't that strong...
In general, the poll showed that the best absolute abilities are "True Luck" and "Spell Penetration"; few people choose "Cry of Horror"...
But why are there three of them? Did you buy them in outposts? There's always only one there, and the city has a growth rate of 3 due to the castle (which is built first) and the graveyard; you can't judge the growth rate the way you do.

WoG is more popular than the original, and people are still making mods for it. But how much new content was there?

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In the end, I noticed that you like to compare units in 1v1 battles, so the growth rate definitely doesn't matter then; a Green Dragon will kill a Skeleton for 2.5 times the damage, but a Skeleton will hit a Green Dragon 5-6 times, at least...I won't even mention the Dark Knight and the Fire Elemental...

And also, a SKELETON doesn't cast "Curse" or "Gloom"; it only has upgrades. That's how it becomes equal to a Green Dragon.

Knights don't have "Death Grip," but NEITHER do the Undead! You should compare Paladins to Harbingers; yes, a Harbinger will win in a 1v1, but in other situations...the first Knights will deliver a charge attack (see initiative).

Added after 15 minutes
And regarding the imbalance of creatures at eight levels...There won't be one. Because some will get strong units and have to pay a lot, while others will get weak units, but it won't cost them much.

The races are far from self-sufficient because mods are trying to add old, familiar units from the third game, but for that, they'll have to remove some of the beloved units from the fifth game (see: Ifrits and Cave Demons, Ice Dragons and Arcata Dragons).

Стрелы истинного рейнджера не знают промаха
и разят ненавистных врагов королевства...:smile13:

In reply to WoodElf

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Registered: 7/10/2008 3:04 PM UTC

Posts: 4,372

11/10/2008 6:41 AM UTC #12

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I'm not "you" ;) Feel free to address me informally. :)

"Cry of Horror" is useless because it lowers morale, but some creatures have positive morale, so it's actually better: it always deals double damage.

-6 to morale is useless? This double damage is unlikely to occur with -6 morale...

And imbalance is an unstoppable force, utter nonsense, the Empire's creatures aren't that strong... In general, in a poll, it was recognized that the best ultimate abilities are "True Luck" and "Cold Wisdom," and few people use "Cry of Horror."

"Unstoppable Force" increases guard damage. And so what if it was recognized in a poll? :) If anything, "Super Ability" is rarely used in most cases.

Why are there three of them? Did you buy them at outposts? There's always one there, and the city has a growth of 3 due to the castle (which is built first) and the tomb, you can't judge the growth the way you do.

Let's clarify something: they grow by 3 along with the castle and the tomb, right? :) So there are three of them.

WoG is more popular than the original, yet mods are still being made for it. And how much new content was there?

Hmm... and what is WoG itself? It's nothing more than a mod. So they're not making mods for a mod, but mods for SoD... or something like that. :) In fact, few people play WoG... but many play the original.

In the end, I noticed that you like to compare things one-on-one.

I didn't say anything like that... I'm just comparing growth rates. You could also compare an Assassin to a Peasant...

"Charge" will be used by the first Knights.

Okay, the Knights just won't make it.

And regarding the imbalance of creatures at eight levels... There won't be any. Because some will get strong creatures and have to pay a lot, while others will get weak creatures, but it won't cost them much.

That's actually imbalance... and if one person is lucky with money? It's clear that weak creatures are cheap.

The factions are far from self-sufficient because mods try to add old, familiar units from the third game, but for this, they have to remove some of the beloved units from the fifth game.

Because mods try to add creatures, the factions have become less self-sufficient?... terrible... And in what way are they not self-sufficient then?

Tomorrow holds no promises
Except the ones we've made

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Registered: 11/3/2008 9:34 AM UTC

Posts: 257

11/10/2008 9:03 AM UTC #13

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Dude, you need to understand that all dragons have the same initial +1 growth rate; yes, you can increase it with a tombstone, but we're comparing the initial growth rates. When you build a dragon graveyard, you won't have 3 dragons, but only 1. So... I'm right.

And what if the Knights wait? Then will the Undead also wait, or will they move, while the Knight moves to attack on the next turn? And the Undead will take longer to get there.

The morale is only -6, okay, they'll miss a turn, but the counterattacks will be doubled (luck now always works and can't be reduced :-)).

And races aren't self-sufficient in their very essence; almost no one uses Hydras, Gargoyles are called "stools," and Zombies are simply not bought... Replace the Hydras, but in that case, you'll have to come up with equally strong creatures (level 5).

Added 6 minutes ago
Yes, they are self-sufficient for level 5, but everyone is constantly complaining that the developers have removed the beloved Nagas, Ifrits, Gorgons, Medusas, and Drakes. As a solution, add 24 more creatures as a self-contained level or an alternative, as in part 4.

Regarding the imbalance, it has always existed. Do you think an Assassin (level 1) is equal to a Master Archer (level 3)? And yet, they have the same growth rate. And is a Fury stronger than an Archmage?

Added 1 hour 31 minutes ago
Okay, it's true that this topic is not yet clear.
However, we shouldn't forget that imagination should be at work here.
......
Well, in general, now we're not just discussing whether there is an imbalance or not, but we're making sure that there isn't one; to do this, we just need to change the characteristics and levels of the creatures...
......
The Witch looks too weak, and the Hydra is too weak for its type, so let's make it so that they change levels.
The Witch's characteristics will decrease noticeably, but she will remain in demand because she is a ranged attacker...
This is just an example...

Okay, I'll create a new topic: "Heroes of Light and Darkness." Stay tuned...

In reply to WoodElf

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Registered: 7/10/2008 3:04 PM UTC

Posts: 4,372

11/10/2008 9:21 AM UTC #14

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Dude, you need to understand that all dragons have the same initial +1 growth rate, and yes, you can increase it with a tombstone, but we're comparing the initial growth rates.

I still don't understand what they're being compared to. I compare the final growth rate because that's the actual stat that matters. Or are you not building a dragon graveyard?

When you build a dragon graveyard, you won't have 3 dragons, but only 1.

Okay, fine. After I build the dragon lair, there's always a final battle... no matter where the enemy hero is, they always appear at the gates of my castle with a green dragon. Well, in that case, I was wrong.

But what if the Knights wait? Will the undead still move, or will they wait too, while the Knight moves to attack on the next turn? And the undead will take longer to get there.

The Knight will move forward, and the undead will also move forward. There's no cavalry bonus.

The morale is only -6, okay, they'll skip a turn, but the counterattacks will be doubled.

Okay, but why do it manually? There's also magic, ranged attacks... and you can just remove the retaliation.
And what does Single-Player mode have to do with this?

And the races aren't self-sufficient in their essence; almost no one uses Hydras, Gargoyles are called "stools," and Zombies are simply not bought...

I haven't seen a single Warlock without Hydras. Gargoyles are evil! Not buying Zombies is unwise.

Yes, they are self-sufficient for a party of five, but everyone keeps complaining.

Well, are you talking about Heroes of Might and Magic 3 now? :)

But everyone keeps complaining that the Nival developers have removed the beloved Nagas, Ifrits, Gorgons, Medusas, and Drakes.

I'm not complaining, and I don't think many people are. They didn't remove them; they weren't in Heroes of Might and Magic 3.

Do you think an Assassin (level 1) is equal to a Master Archer (level 3)?

Good example +100.
Maybe we should also compare a Black Dragon (level 7) and a Peasant (level 1) – what a terrible imbalance! It needs to be fixed and fixed again!