How many units can a unit kill in one turn? — New ideas.

WildKOT

17 years ago

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I propose a revolutionary idea. Perhaps it doesn't even belong in Heroes, but it will be the basis for another game. The main idea is that each unit has an indicator of how many units it can kill in one turn. At the same time, unit abilities can influence this. For example, a paladin swinging his sword won't be able to kill more than 5 units. What does this give? It means that each type of unit will be stronger against units that are 1-2 levels weaker, as well as against those that are much higher. There will be exceptions, but their cost will reflect that.

kcfgogbfalgfl

17 years ago

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I propose a revolutionary idea. Perhaps it doesn't even belong in Heroes, but it could be the basis for another game.

The idea is that each unit has an indicator of how many units it can kill in one turn. Unit abilities can also influence this.

For example, a paladin swinging his sword won't be able to kill more than 5 units.

What does this give? It means that each type of unit will be stronger against units that are 1-2 levels weaker, as well as against those that are much stronger.
There will be exceptions, but their cost will reflect that.

I don't understand)) Or am I just not thinking clearly at night...
Is this for Heroes 5?
Could you elaborate?

What does this give? It means that each type of unit will be stronger against units that are 1-2 levels weaker, as well as against those that are much stronger.

(an example from Heroes 3, because I don't know Heroes 5)
So, does this mean that a Titan can easily defeat 10 Death Knights?

WildKOT

17 years ago

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Let me explain it simply. Let's say a Titan throws lightning bolts and can deal 50 damage with each bolt (ignoring other factors). However, there's a limit: it can kill a maximum of 5 units.
If it attacks Death Knights, the lightning bolt will hit one of them, dealing 50 damage, but if the Knight has 100 health remaining, it won't be enough to kill him.
However, if it attacks peasants, it will be a disaster because the lightning bolt will easily kill them, but it won't be able to hit more than 5 units.

Moreover, the limit can be less than 5.

In reply to WildKOT

Wistrit

17 years ago

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we gather 300 peasants and go to raid Utopia... and then we storm the castle filled with Titans...

In reply to Wistrit

WildKOT

17 years ago

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WisTrit;201284

We gather 300 peasants and go to raid Utopia... and then we storm a castle filled with titans...

This is a revolutionary change that will affect many things and make balancing and AI more complex.
For example, we will have to give dragons help in the form of some kind of support unit, or allow dragons to defeat many units at once.

And about the titans: don't leave a castle with only titans in it :)

In reply to WildKOT

Wistrit

17 years ago

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Okay, what's the point of this? And I don't see the point in accumulating a bunch of high-tier creatures if they can only effectively destroy each other. P.S. We're accumulating 1000 goblins (that's not such a big problem)...

WildKOT

17 years ago

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Higher-tier creatures will attack mid-tier creatures, and as a result, the opponent will have nothing left to use to eliminate the goblins.
All levels are interconnected.

In reply to WildKOT

Wistrit

17 years ago

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What if I only have goblins? First, we clear the initial levels... and then we have some fun.

KonServator

17 years ago

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2WildKOT Then what's the point of building dwellings of high levels? It takes so many resources! Or will a farm now cost 10,000 gold?

In reply to KonServator

WildKOT

17 years ago

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KonServator;201380

2WildKOT Then what’s the point of building high-level dwellings? It wastes so many resources! Or will a farm now cost 10,000 gold?

KonServator;201380

2WildKOT Then what’s the point of building high-level dwellings? It wastes so many resources! Or will a farm now cost 10,000 gold?

This will be achieved by increasing the power gap. If the limit doesn’t work, then “hold on, you guys!” :)

For clarity, let’s consider a simplified model.
We only have peasants, swordsmen, and Knights.

Swordsmen fight Knights well, Knights fight swordsmen well (because they are stronger, but the limit doesn’t work yet).
Knights fight peasants poorly due to the introduced limit.

Let’s assume that two armies met: one with swordsmen and peasants, and the other with peasants, swordsmen, and Knights.

The Knights quickly dealt with the swordsmen because they are strong; during this time, the peasants won’t have time to seriously defeat the paladins or swordsmen. But swordsmen will be useful for defeating the peasants.

In reply to WildKOT

Wistrit

17 years ago

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Oh yes... titans hurl lightning bolts precisely at five peasants. What sticklers for accuracy! Instead of charging into the midst of unprotected people and hacking away indiscriminately, the Knights will challenge each peasant to a personal duel.
And the peasants, swarming in a group of 200 (and there's enough room for everyone!), kill angels and devils without batting an eye.
And yet... why? What is the point of all this?

In reply to Wistrit

WildKOT

17 years ago

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WisTrit;201387

Oh yeah... Titans hurl lightning bolts precisely at five peasants. What sticklers for accuracy! Knights, instead of charging into the thick of unprotected people and hacking away, will challenge each peasant to a personal duel.
And the peasants, swarming in a group of 200 (and there's enough room for everyone!), kill angels and devils without batting an eye.
And yet... why? What is the point of this?...

1) The issue of space has been a realism problem since King's Bounty, and it hasn't gone away. If you take it into account, you need to drastically reduce the gap between the strength of different levels.

2) The Titan strikes with lightning. But it's not infinite. :)
Similarly, a knight won't be able to strike faster than, say, 5 units per turn, no matter how good his defense is.

3) To avoid such precise targeting of exactly 5, no more, no less, you also need to introduce a range, just like with damage.

Machete

17 years ago

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WildKOT, your idea is just too radical. Strictly speaking, after adjusting all the parameters, the high-level units will only differ from the low-level ones in their toughness. The difference in attack power somehow becomes a secondary or tertiary factor... No, it's possible, of course, but where's the "Heroes of Might and Magic" in that? Or should we remove the "Might" part? Then we'll just have "Heroes of Magic." Or will magic also have a limit? Then it will be a completely different game.

WildKOT

17 years ago

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It will be like rock-paper-scissors, but in an expanded version. Because high-level units will be able to defeat mid-level units, which, in turn, are effective against low-level units. That is, if the enemy is only a few levels weaker, this advantage will be even more effective. Magic will also have: different spells will have different effects on the number of units killed. The advantage of this idea is that it's a single new feature that doesn't significantly complicate the mathematical model, but it opens up many new possibilities in game tactics. And this is a characteristic of great games, such as chess. :)

In reply to WildKOT

Wistrit

17 years ago

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I already wrote a post... but it disappeared during technical maintenance.

It will be like an expanded version of rock-paper-scissors.

Is this definitely for Heroes?
Heroes is not rock-paper-scissors.

That is, if the enemy is weaker by only a few levels, then this advantage will be even more effective.

The Undead tear everyone apart, absolutely everyone. Orcs tear apart almost everyone. Training grounds should be scrapped. We set the first three levels as sworn enemies and win. We summon an incredible number of imps and greater demons (we cut down titans with a leap, dealing 10 damage, 5 demons). Why does a Warlock need strength? Magic will still only be able to destroy a certain number of units. And what is the point of attack and defense at all??? Miniatures are evil! Runes are the ultimate evil!!11 Light magic with resurrection is Armageddon!!!!

The advantage of this idea is that it is all one innovation that does not significantly complicate the mathematical model and will open up many new things in the game's tactics.

W H Y ? ? ?

And this is precisely what makes great games like chess special.

Heroes is no less a great game. There is no need to compare it to chess. They are completely different things.

Still, I will add... this was in the previous post.