A program for determining luck/morality in Heroes 3! — Offline tournaments.

vbn

18 years ago

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I, in turn, can only reiterate that I fought the Titans and many other battles (but not all!) on Windows XP, with an unmodified Cranim.txt. I replayed it several times there and yesterday. Snipers were lucky 1-2 times. As I already wrote, to kill the Titans, one cast of Haste by the Sorcerer and 2 lucky shots from the snipers are enough, or 2 casts of Haste and 1 lucky shot from the snipers. And the fact that the snipers were lucky 5 times and 6 times – do you really think that, knowing that such a large number of lucky shots (even 3) is not needed at all, I would deliberately draw attention to myself?

Regarding the repeatability of battles – yes, I noticed, but I didn't attach any importance to it, and I drew conclusions that I "naively" shared with everyone in my walkthrough, without even realizing that I was violating something. Or do you think that, having deliberately violated something, I would write incriminating guesses about the constancy or inconsistency of the battle map? I myself was surprised by this fact, and even after the accusations were made, I couldn't immediately understand what the problem was.

I am asking the tournament organizers to annul the result of my game. In general, everyone is free to think whatever they want about me. I have already said everything I could.

Catch

18 years ago

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Regarding the battle with the titans. I won the battle on the first try. The snipers got lucky once. On the first turn, the wizard cast a blessing. On the third turn, he cast haste. The djinns didn't cast anything. After the battle, there was one wizard and 20 snipers left.
Maybe it helped that I didn't watch a video of the battle? :)

Added 5 minutes later
You'll laugh, but I won on the second try as well. The titans got stunned once near the end, but the snipers also got lucky twice. The wizard cast an air shield at the right moment (after all the titan blockers died). He didn't cast haste even once. There was 1 wizard and 9 snipers left.

Added 5 minutes later
Ah, I was just told that it's not just about winning, but also about minimizing losses...

In reply to Catch

cyberB

18 years ago

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Catch;190331

Regarding the battle with the Titans... After the battle, there was one wizard and 20 snipers left.

In the end, there was 1 wizard and 9 snipers.

You can win a battle with losses in various ways; it's quite simple. But winning with minimal losses – 4 centaurs, an angel, and a wizard – is not.

One speed boost and two luck boosts, or two speed boosts and one luck boost, are enough to defeat the Titans, yes, but with excessive losses. For the losses shown in the video (and during the playthrough!), this is not enough. You need at least 3 luck boosts and speed boosts.

But 5 out of 6!!!

Added 10 minutes later
I also found something interesting in the thread:

VDV_forever: "Bravo, vbn! You didn't hesitate and conducted two battles using the save files you posted; thank you!"

I wonder how it was possible to repeat the battle in the scenario using those save files without an insane amount of luck and slowness?

In reply to cyberB

Catch

18 years ago

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cyberB;190348

You can win a battle with losses in various ways; it's quite simple. But winning with minimal losses – 4 centaurs, an angel, and a sorcerer – is not.

Well, in reality, the battle is quite easy. My minimal losses were 4 centaurs, 2 angels, and a sniper. I don't feel like playing further because then you really need to rely on luck in the early turns (while the blockers are still alive). But I'm too lazy. However, I don't think it's impossible to achieve the specified losses. The battle in the "can" (presumably a specific scenario or map) was much more interesting.

One speed boost and two lucks, or two speed boosts and one luck, are enough to defeat the titans, yes, but with greater losses. For the losses in the video (and during the playthrough!), that's not enough. You need at least 3 lucks and speed boosts.

By the way, once, on the first turn, my sorcerer cast slow, which also allowed me to block them with centaurs on the second turn.

I also found something interesting in the thread:

VDV_forever: "Bravo vbn! I took the time and played two battles using the save files you posted, thank you!"

I wonder how it was possible to replay the "can" battle without an insane amount of luck with blindness and slowness?

That's really interesting. Maybe the coordinator will reveal the secret to us? :)

In reply to cyberB

Dirty_Player

18 years ago

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cyberB;190323

Dirty_Player, you said you could easily repeat this battle, even 6 times out of 6, and that you'd get lucky, "but you're just short on time." I'm holding you to your word – repeat it. Don't use any exploits. Play for at least an hour, and you'll realize that it's impossible. I spent the whole evening on this today, and I just confirmed that I was right.

Heh, well, saying it was EASY, I guess I was WAY too optimistic!! :D It will take me at least a month for this, maybe even more! I'm not promising 6 out of 6, but I will definitely dedicate a few hours to this battle. I'll be sure to let you know what I manage to do...

cyberB;190348

Also found something interesting in the thread:
VDV_forever: "Bravo vbn! You weren't lazy and you played two battles using the save files you posted, thank you!"

And that's really cool :D :D :D Maybe he's talking about the battle in the cyclops warehouses? :D

In reply to Dirty_Player

Catch

18 years ago

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Dirty_Player;190357

And this is really funny :D :D :D Maybe it refers to a battle in the Cyclops warehouses? :D

Unfortunately, it doesn't match :smile32: The coordinator's post was written when only the saves before the Griffin and Titan battles were posted on the forum :rolleyes:

In reply to Dirty_Player

cyberB

18 years ago

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Dirty_Player;190357

That’s actually pretty funny :D :D :D Maybe he meant the battle in the Cyclops’ warehouses? :D

There was no save before the battle with the Cyclops.

In reply to cyberB

vbn

18 years ago

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One rush and one lucky shot were enough (video).

Fireball

18 years ago

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2 cyberB aka Banana

You can win a battle with losses in various ways; it’s quite simple. But winning with minimal losses – 4 centaurs, an angel, and a wizard – is not.

Being a noob is fate. A noob’s fate is almost a tragedy. It seems that this is exactly what applies to you. I loaded the save and won the battle with the same losses as vbn in less than an hour. On the first turn, the genies cast luck (it seems) and haste, and the wizard cast slow. In the second round, the angels finished off one group of genies, and the snipers finished off the second. Then, I positioned the centaurs and the wizard after casting stone skin. The snipers had 2 luck buffs, although one would have been enough with more or less successful damage. So, either you didn’t try hard enough, or see above.

cyberB

18 years ago

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Don't exaggerate. I only wrote to Katch about the ease and difficulty, and only to show that we are trying not just to win the battle. Especially for you, I will say that winning with such losses was not the goal - this battle can be improved. For example, wizards could move forward earlier - full speed ahead, catching the bless. All of this is in the latest video. And there would be no complaints about such a battle. But there are complaints about the battle with five lucks in six turns. And I was trying to repeat that.

Senatоr

18 years ago

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Regarding the modified Cranim. This version is better than the traffic light, both with and without restrictions. With a detailed description of the battle by the author, anyone can verify it on the first try. The non-standard probability of morale and luck dropping is effectively resolved. If this file is approved as a fix, it should definitely be written in large, bold letters in the rules and for each tournament, so that no one can "accidentally" forget about it. I would like to know if there are any other additional files that are added/modified after installing SoD 3.2 (besides Rmg), and that are used either online or offline?

In reply to cyberB

VDV_forever

18 years ago

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cyberB;190348

I also found something interesting in the thread:

VDV_forever: "Bravo vbn! I wasn't lazy and played two battles using the save files you posted, thank you!"

I wonder how it was possible to replay those battles in the game without spending hours trying to get lucky and improve morale?

:) Replaying a battle and simply playing a battle are two completely different things;
I'm not one of those people who will spend hours trying to get lucky and improve morale; I don't have time for that;
I simply played those battles and successfully won them, using the tactic suggested by vbn. I played them successfully, but certainly with greater losses.:smile01:

I would like to point out that the tournament was not official, and DirtyPlayer was the host, not me. Therefore, when playing these battles, I did not set myself the task of checking the save files for cheating; I have enough of my own save files in Heroes 1!

It's strange that DirtyPlayer was too lazy to replay the battle with the Titans and thus accepted a save file that could not have been accepted without verification:eek:

P.S. If in Heroes 1, I cannot replay a battle in 10-15 attempts, a request is sent to the player asking for a full description of that battle. Up to now, I have never encountered a problem with the impossibility of replaying a battle in Heroes 1. There have been different other interesting cases, but not with battles yet...

P.P.S. By the way, one of the reasons for my unwillingness to play Heroes 3 was the fact that some people have the time and, most importantly, the desire to generate luck/morale, and I don't have either. Accordingly, relying only on my skill, I no longer have a chance to take 1st place in such a game, and if that's not the case, then there's no point in playing. But a blitz tournament is a different matter!

Sincerely, VDV_forever

In reply to Senatоr

Catch

18 years ago

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Senator;190383

Regarding the modified Cranium. This version is better than the traffic light, both with and without restrictions. With a detailed description of the battle by the author, anyone can test it successfully on their first try. The inconsistent probability of morale and luck drops has been effectively resolved.

If this file is approved as a fix, it must be prominently and clearly stated in the rules and for each tournament, so that no one can "accidentally" forget about it.

Everything is correct. But there's one "but." Who can guarantee that the file doesn't contain other parameters, and that changing them (consciously or unconsciously, it doesn't matter) won't give someone other advantages? For example, if someone replaces ones with zeros in another column, will enemies deal minimal damage, as if they were cursed? Or some other nonsense...
Before declaring the file an official tournament application, it needs to be thoroughly analyzed, and not only analyzed, but also clearly and in detail explain the mechanism of its operation to each player participating in the tournament; everyone must be in absolutely equal conditions. And the description of the file should be placed next to the link to it, or it should be included in the archive containing the file itself.

Аделаида

18 years ago

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I honestly read the entire thread from the first to the last page, and I want to ask: since when is the concept of "rule violation" identical to the concept of "cheating"? The former can certainly include the latter, but they are not the same thing. The respected vbn violated a rule — the clause about programs that alter the game's structure — but he did not cheat. So please stop calling him a cheater; it's hard on the eyes and I feel very sorry for him. I want to highlight this man's nobility: he took the burden of choice off the tournament organizer and wrote himself that his results should not be counted (although I can understand what it's like to spend so much time and effort, only to find out it was all in vain). And while it's too early to draw conclusions, I will venture to guess that in the future we will once again thank vbn, this time for a way to fix the DB.
I join the opinions expressed above that it probably makes sense to suspend the offline on SoD (until the loopholes in the rules are patched, or all side effects of the modified cranium are thoroughly studied). This needs to be done to avoid such scandals in the future, which cast a shadow on well-organized tournaments.

In reply to Catch

Vanechka

18 years ago

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Catch;190393

That's correct. But there's one "but." Who can guarantee that the file doesn't contain other parameters, and that changing them (consciously or unconsciously, it doesn't matter) won't give someone other advantages? For example, if someone replaces the ones with zeros in another column, and the enemies will deal minimal damage, like with a curse? Or some other nonsense...

Maybe I misunderstood something, but if a single, universal cranim file is used for all saves, then everyone will have the same battles with the same sequence of moves? Then any nonsense that results from additional cranim editing will be easily detected.

cyberB;190376

Just for you, I'll say that winning with such losses wasn't worth it - this battle can be improved. For example, mages can move forward earlier - full speed ahead, catching the Bless spell. All of this is in the latest video. And there would be no complaints about such a battle.

But there are complaints about a battle with five lucky rolls in six turns. And I was trying to replicate that.

Somehow, it seems obvious to everyone that running a battle with 5 out of 6 lucky rolls is quite difficult, but for some reason, it's not obvious that replicating such a battle exactly is even more difficult.
cyberB, will you be able to replicate your best battle exactly after six hours?
I don't know, I've had battles that I generated for several hours. It would be a nightmare if I had to replicate the best one exactly.
I'm not even talking about whether or not VBN's battle should be counted; I just remembered your words about the "Portal dogma" - "if a judge can't replicate it after five tries, the battle is considered a loss."
But what if you really encounter someone like Stanislavsky, who sees Germans at every corner?
It would be better to introduce this zeroed cranim file if it really guarantees 100% replication of battles.

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