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Posts from Darkness or Light? Philosophy in Knights of the Old Republic. Auto-translated

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#46
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monarh;172425
As I said, they just needed to trust the wisdom of the Jedi :D.
And in general, look at how Palpatine treated his former apprentice:
He told Anakin to simply kill him, and Anakin obeyed like a puppet.
And regarding Tatooine, I disagree with you, because the Council refused to train him as a Jedi, not to take him from Tatooine.
Initially, they were only thinking about how to escape... in fact, if Qui-Gon hadn't been there, they wouldn't have taken the boy with them...
Dooku was initially planned as a pawn, and as soon as it became possible to replace him for his own benefit, Palpatine did so... The Separatist army was commanded by Grievous, who obeyed Palpatine unconditionally, and Dooku was discarded to increase the influence of the Dark Side on Anakin... A normal person would not have killed Dooku... and in comparison to the situations between the defeated Dooku and the defeated Palpatine, Dooku looked completely incapable of anything...
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#47
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Anakin initially had some predispositions towards the Dark Side, perhaps after losing his mother, or perhaps he has some psychological issues (?)... But the fact remains: if Anakin had been unconscious, and Obi-Wan had fought Dooku, I am 100% sure that Obi-Wan would have spared him... And if he had spared him, it is quite possible that he would have revealed the truth about Palpatine.

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#48
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monarh;172429
Anakin initially had some predispositions towards the Dark Side, perhaps after losing his mother, or perhaps he had some psychological issues (?)... But the fact remains: if Anakin had been unconscious, and Obi-Wan was fighting Dooku, I am 100% sure that Obi-Wan would have spared him... And if he had spared him, he would have likely told the truth about Palpatine.
Initially, Anakin didn't have any predispositions towards the Dark Side... he had an attachment to his mother, like all children who remember their parents... however, the Jedi Council didn't even consider Anakin's mother's fate, even though they could have done everything... Perhaps this was also one of the reasons why the Council initially decided not to train him... because children with the Force are literally taken away from their mothers at an age when they are not capable of remembering them... it's like a monastic cult...
Regarding the facts... this is quite doubtful... If Dooku had fought Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan would have most likely died, because he was one of the main threats to Anakin's transition to the Dark Side...
But in the end, it turned out to be much more beneficial to sacrifice his apprentice, Dooku... Because Dooku already knew many of Palpatine's secrets and could have used his newfound power to expose, overthrow, and kill Palpatine in time...

P.S.: maybe we should rename the topic to general philosophical discussions about choosing between Light and Darkness:D
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#49
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But the fact remains: if Anakin had been unconscious and Obi-Wan was fighting Dooku, I'm 100% sure Obi-Wan would have spared him... And if he had spared him, it's quite possible he would have revealed the truth about Palpatine.
If Obi-Wan had been fighting, Dooku would have simply killed him. He may have had an order from Palpatine to provoke Anakin, but not to kill him. Moreover, Anakin was already stronger than Obi-Wan, but he lost at the end of the film in a rather illogical way, probably because he succumbed to rage and lost self-control, which is fatal for any fighter.
In general, while watching the 3rd film, two questions arose: what is so bad about the Sith, and why are the Jedi so stupid? Although the second is more or less clear; they are used to using the Force for precognition, but they were not taught to use their brains. As soon as the Dark Side closed the easy path to the future for them, the Jedi became like blind kittens.
Because if Anakin had known about the possibility of using his brain, and not just his spine, he would have asked himself questions like: why does a young, healthy woman die during childbirth in the age of mega-medicine, who is the Sith who controls the Senate, is it worth believing the fairy tale about Darth Plagueis the Wise, etc. If he had thought about even a few such questions rationally, he would have saved his wife, brought peace to the Republic, and restored the balance of the Force a quarter of a century earlier. He would have lived peacefully and happily on Naboo, and when he had gained enough Jedi strength (and sooner or later, with this scenario, he would have surpassed even Cheburashka Visarionovich), the Council would have crawled to him, because they understood only the Force and nothing else.
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#50
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See, I told you that all the light-side Jedi who turn to the dark side lose their power... Or maybe Obi-Wan was just stronger than his apprentice (which is quite likely). Perhaps Anakin is physically stronger than Obi-Wan, but in terms of wisdom and the use of the Force, he still has a long way to go to reach Obi-Wan's level...

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#51
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monarh;172443
See, I told you that all light-side Jedi who turn to the dark side lose their power... Well, or Obi-Wan was just stronger than his apprentice (which is quite likely). Maybe Anakin is physically stronger than Obi-Wan, but in terms of wisdom and using the Force, he still has a long way to go...
Using the Force doesn't always depend on wisdom... In terms of using the Force, they were equal - this is well shown in the telekinetic confrontation when they both flew in different directions... the stronger one would have just stayed standing...
Anakin just uncontrollably unleashed his emotions, his rage... Anger can add strength, but it can also make you overconfident and clumsy... and Obi-Wan took advantage of that... In general, the duel was silly... they were like pumped-up fencers, only fighting with lightsabers, but rage directed at using the Force could have clearly helped Anakin more... which is what Palpatine did in the battle with Yoda...
Anakin was a beginner and therefore hadn't yet learned the secrets of Sith power... unlike Palpatine, who was more cold-blooded and calculating, which gave him an advantage over Yoda...
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#52
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Well, you might as well say that Yoda is weaker than Palpatine in a duel:D. But it's interesting to think about what would happen if Yoda went to kill Anakin and Obi-Wan went after Palpatine... I think it's clear that Palpatine would have defeated Obi-Wan... But the fight between Yoda and Anakin is unclear (although it's obvious that he would lose to the green friend:)). P.S.: Why are you so sure that Obi-Wan had no chance of winning? P.P.S.: And at the end of SW III, it was quite sad for the Jedi Masters, who can be said to have been "stabbed in the back." Only Yoda and Obi-Wan managed to survive... Well, Obi-Wan was just lucky, and Yoda... well, Yoda is very smart :D, this moment also proves his wisdom.

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#53
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monarh;172451
Well, you might as well say that in terms of a duel, Yoda is weaker than Palpatine:D.
But it's interesting to think about what would happen if Yoda went to take out Anakin, and Obi-Wan took on Palpatine...
I think it's clear that Palpatine would have defeated Obi-Wan... But the situation with Yoda and Anakin is unclear (although it's clear that he would lose to the green friend in battle)).
Regarding the lightsaber battle, maybe he's not better, but I would say that Mace Windu is better than both Yoda and Palpatine in terms of lightsaber combat, but he has no Force abilities at all).
Yes - in the end, Luke Skywalker would never have learned about his Jedi abilities, and Palpatine would not have been thrown into the shaft on the Death Star))) However, given the intrigues that are not shown in the film, it is quite possible that without Vader, Palpatine would have been overthrown... by Moff Tarkin or Admiral Motti... or eventually Grand Admiral Thrawn))) There were many contenders for Palpatine's place, but besides Vader, Palpatine also had many other powerful allies, whose stories were only revealed in the expanded universe... This is the famous Grand Admiral Thrawn, Lumiya, viziers, and the personal guard... and much more, thanks to which Palpatine reigned in the galaxy as Emperor for a good 25 years...
monarh;172451
P.S.: Why are you so sure that Obi-Wan had no chance of winning?
P.P.S.: And at the end of SW III, it was quite sad for the Jedi Masters, who can be said to have been "stabbed in the back" - only Yoda and Obi-Wan managed to survive...
Obi-Wan was just lucky, and Yoda... well, Yoda is very smart :D, in general, this moment also proves his wisdom.
It's as clear as day... Dooku was also Qui-Gon's teacher and therefore knew and possessed techniques and the Force at a level higher than Obi-Wan... at the level of Yoda or Palpatine...
Yes, but - a huge number survived (for readers of the expanded universe), dozens of Jedi resisted for many years, but almost all of them were later found and eliminated by Palpatine's Inquisitors... And immediately after the 3rd episode, a group of Jedi who were going to finish him off with false information were killed by Vader...
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#54
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An interesting debate, and I'll add my two cents:)
The Sith are evil because they prohibit feelings like love ("What could be worse than love? Only ONE thing - mercy" - Uthar Wynn), mercy, compassion; the Sith condemn helping others, the Sith are ambitious, and therefore dangerous; the Sith are focused on an endless cycle of violence and death (a student must kill the teacher... and then the question arises - WHY have a student in the first place?! This, in my opinion, is the height of absurdity), and they use the Force for personal purposes, which, considering everything mentioned above, are not very good).
The Jedi are bad because any monastic order is bad - due to its isolation, but at least they help people...
Where do we go?
Where do we end up when we save the world?
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#55
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Alex Ghost;172453
Regarding the lightsaber battle, it might not be the best, but I would say that Mace Windu is better than both Yoda and Palpatine in terms of lightsaber combat, but he's completely lacking in the Force.
Yes - in the end, Luke Skywalker would never have learned about his Jedi abilities, and Palpatine wouldn't have been thrown into the shaft on the Death Star))) Although, considering the intrigues that weren't shown in the film, it's quite possible that without Vader, Palpatine would have been overthrown... by Moff Tarkin or Admiral Motti... or eventually Grand Admiral Thrawn))) There were many contenders for Palpatine's position, but besides Vader, Palpatine also had many other powerful allies, whose stories were only revealed in the expanded universe... This includes the famous Grand Admiral Thrawn, Lumiya, viziers, and the personal guard... and much more, thanks to which Palpatine ruled the galaxy as Emperor for a good 25 years...
In general, everyone who can defeats Palpatine in lightsaber combat :D.
That's exactly why Vader needed to be killed... Stupid Obi-Wan... :
Well, maybe Palpatine is stronger than everyone else in using the Force, but otherwise... :smile18:.
You could rename the topic...
Interesting discussion, I'll add my two cents
The Sith are evil because they forbid feelings like love ("What could be worse than love? Only ONE thing - mercy" (Uthar Wynn)), mercy, compassion, the Sith condemn helping others, the Sith are ambitious, which means they are dangerous, the Sith are aimed at an endless cycle of violence and death (the student must kill the teacher... And here's the question - WHY have a student in the first place?! This, in my opinion, is the height of absurdity) and they use the Force for personal purposes, which, given all of the above, are not very good)
The Jedi are bad because any monastic order is bad - due to its isolation, but they at least help people...
At least I'm not the only one :D.
Well, isolation is definitely unnecessary...
Siverfale, maybe we're not understanding something?
For example, in KOTOR, Bastila said, "I can't even imagine myself doing something like that (or something along those lines)," and then she switched to the dark side :(.

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#56
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Siverfale;172455
An interesting debate, I'll add my two cents:)
The Sith are evil because they forbid feelings like love ("What could be worse than love? Only ONE thing – mercy" – Utar Wynn), mercy, compassion; the Sith condemn helping others. The Sith are ambitious, which makes them dangerous. The Sith are focused on an endless cycle of violence and death, and they use their power for personal purposes, which, considering everything mentioned above, are not very good).
The Jedi are bad because any monastic order is bad due to its isolation, but at least they help people...
Have you watched anything besides the movies?))) The Sith actually allow love, while the Jedi condemn it... The ancient Sith allowed anything that could increase their power and knowledge of the Force... acts of mercy were simply so unprofitable in this regard that they soon began to be rejected and perceived as weakness...
Siverfale;172455
the student must kill the teacher... And here's the question – WHY have a student in the first place?! This is, in my opinion, the height of absurdity.
This curious rule became a rule most likely due to its frequent violation... And in reality, it was never a rule... In KOTOR, they didn't even think about it... So, many just perceived it that way...

P.S. In general, KOTOR 2 is a great thing in terms of its philosophical approach to all possible actions in Star Wars... both cruelty and mercy...
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#57
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Have you watched anything besides movies?))) The Sith allow it, while the Jedi condemn love... The ancient Sith allowed anything that could increase their power and knowledge of the Force... it's just that acts of mercy were so disadvantageous in this regard that they soon began to be rejected and perceived as weakness...
No, it's just a play on words. Although, I admit, I haven't read the books.
This curious rule became a rule most likely precisely because it was so often violated... And in reality, it was never a rule... In Knights of the Old Republic, they didn't even think about it... So it's just something that many people took for granted...
I didn't quite understand, do you mean that an apprentice shouldn't kill an apprentice? But then why is it perceived by everyone as something completely self-evident? And also, in the tomb, the old teacher of the Sith academy said that if you possess valuable knowledge, you should never tell anyone about it. How should this be understood in conjunction with the permission for apprenticeship?
Well, isolation is definitely unnecessary...
In my opinion, isolation is correct - if you don't want there to be a POSSIBILITY of falling to the dark side. The Jedi are overly cautious, and this is proof of that, but it is also the only way to protect the Force from bad influence
Where do we go?
Where do we end up when we save the world?
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#58
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The Sith allow it, while the Jedi condemn love...
The Jedi don't condemn love itself; they prohibit it because:
A loved one gives us strength.
The fear of losing a loved one is fear.
Fear leads to the dark side.
In my opinion, being closed off is correct – if you don't want there to be a POSSIBILITY of falling to the dark side. The Jedi are overly cautious, and this is further proof of that, but it is also the only way to protect the Force from bad influence.
If you compare Bastila, for example, to Obi-Wan (I chose them because they are Jedi).
Listening to Bastila, you can see this closed-off nature. And Obi-Wan, while remaining an exemplary Jedi, is a rather open person.

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#59
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Siverfale;172461
I didn't quite understand, do you mean that an apprentice shouldn't kill an apprentice? But then why is it perceived by everyone as something completely self-evident? And also, in the tomb, the old teacher from the Sith academy said that if you possess valuable knowledge, you should never share it with anyone, how should this be understood in conjunction with the permission to have apprentices?
That's what I'm saying – due to the frequent betrayal of apprentices, when they realize that there is nothing left to learn and they themselves will not tolerate the possibility that they will not control their future and their "small empire"... Thus, apprentices killed teachers...
Siverfale;172461
In my opinion, isolation is correct – if you don't want there to be a POSSIBILITY of falling to the dark side. The Jedi are overly cautious, and this is further proof of that, but it is also the only way to protect the Force from bad influence.
Isolation is stupid... isolation limits the Force and the teaching... thus, while others will develop, the Jedi Order will remain a simple, primitive tribe... The probability of falling to the dark side depends on perception, not on external factors... there is always a choice... and even in a monastery, there will be someone who envies a higher position and more authority... envy and subsequent greed can be caused in such an environment even by a wrongly spoken word, and as a result, the "spiders in a jar" will fight each other.
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#60
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there is always a choice... and even in a monastery, there will be someone who envies a more senior person's higher position and the fact that they have more authority...
Well, you can even see this:
1. For example, Anakin really wanted to get the rank of Master...
2. Bastila also really wants to become a Master...
This is an unresolved problem, because it is impossible to balance everyone, but this envy can lead to the dark side.

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