DISCUSSIONS on “Rules for online games in HoMM3 and formulas for calculating player rating.” — Online Tournaments

Registered: 12/8/2007

Posts: 36

#31 1/23/2008 11:07 AM UTC

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As I see it, the following comments can be made: 1) Regarding banned heroes, it's not necessary to ban all heroes specializing in 3rd and 4th level magic; instead, only ban those with 4th level combat magic, such as Meteor Shower and Chain Lightning (even Resurrection is questionable, as it's allowed on other resources). This is because heroes specializing in prayer or other types of magic are not overpowered against dragons, and they can be allowed to be developed without any restrictions. As for heroes with 3rd level magic, the only restriction should be placed on Tanta: using Resurrection against an opponent should be prohibited until they rebuild in the guild, but it can be allowed against monsters (as it would be tedious to check if it's against monsters, and it wouldn't be overly powerful in the early game, as there are many battles for Necromancers, making it disadvantageous to fight). Also, mana is only enough for one Resurrection. For all other heroes, the magic is not overpowered, and allowing them to be developed won't cause any major problems. A separate ban should be placed on Mueller: he should not be developed beyond level 2 (once he reaches level 3, he should be dismissed). If he is released from prison, he should also be dismissed after reaching +2 levels. The same applies to Necromancer specialists: if they are released from prison and gain +2 levels, they should be dismissed. It wouldn't be fair if a player attacks a prison, breaks through its defenses (which can be very strong for heroes of level 10 or 20), and then has to dismiss the hero because he is banned. After all, the player usually attacks the prison to either use this hero in a chain of battles or to capture something instead of a fortress, and it would be unfair to force the player to dismiss the hero. Moreover, when a player is able to capture such a prison, they will already have a good army and skills, and the fact that a banned hero is in the prison will not give them much of an advantage, especially since they can only upgrade him by +1 level and then use him as a simple unit without participating in battles, which would be even worse than a regular hero of level 10 or 20. Regarding Cielke, Grindanu, and Luna (as for the hero specializing in Ice Bolt, there's nothing to say, he's a regular hero), I wouldn't ban them. Their magic is not as powerful as the 4th level combat magic, and they won't be able to defeat an opponent's army with just one or a few spells. Besides, mages should also have their own Greg Hacks and Tazars. Regarding various Dragons, Mutare, and other heroes from Warlords, I wouldn't even mention them in the rules, as Warlords is a different game, and no one plays it here, nor in TE. Separate rules are needed for Warlords and TE. Since we are writing rules for SoD, we should focus on the heroes that appear in SoD (these heroes will never appear randomly, they may appear in fixed maps, but we don't play on fixed maps). 2) Regarding upgrading vampires, if the issue is with the skeletal dragons, I can assure you that I will almost certainly use them in the early days of the second week. I won't buy the growth upgrade in the early days of the second week, as there's no need when I can upgrade the vampires in a couple of days and use them to defeat everything that moves and lives without any losses (in addition to the fact that another army of skeletons will be operating on the other flank...). However, I've said my opinion, and the decision is up to you. As for the rest, I agree with everything.

In reply to Yakudza

Registered: 9/13/2007

Posts: 754

#32 1/23/2008 11:40 AM UTC

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1) Regarding banned heroes – not all specialists in 3rd and 4th level magic should be banned, but only those with 4th level combat magic – Meteor Shower and Chain Lightning (well, even Restoration is questionable, as it is allowed on other resources). (Because specialists in prayer or magic are not overpowered against dragons, and it is possible to allow them to be leveled up without any restrictions).

In principle, I agree. I suggested this solely to simplify memorization.

For the 3rd level, the restriction should only be applied to Tanta (it is forbidden to use Resurrection against an opponent until the guild is rebuilt, but it is allowed against monsters).

I agree.

For the 2nd level, they must be disbanded, the same applies to Necromancer specialists – if they are released from prison, and if they gain +2 levels, they must be disbanded (it would simply be unfair if a player goes to the prison, breaks through its defenses (and for heroes of level 10 or 20, it can be very difficult), and has to disband the hero because he is banned (but he usually went there to either participate in this hero in a chain or to take something instead of a folder, and here is such an injustice, the hero must be disbanded).

That's fair, I didn't even think about breaking the possible chain.

Regarding Cielke, Grindan, and Luna (as for the specialist in Ice Bolt – there is nothing to say here, he is a completely ordinary hero) – I would not ban them, magic is not as powerful as the 4th level combat magic, and it will not defeat the opponent's army with one or even several casts, and mages should also have their own Greg Hacks and Tazars.

I don't fully agree here:
Cielke has a ranged attack of 60 from the start and enough mana for 6 shots. And after gaining a couple of levels, the ranged attack will be 100, compared to even Solmyr, who has a chain of 110 and mana for 1 cast, Cielke looks much scarier. Luna – if you conduct the battle skillfully, you can defeat 7 monsters in the early days of the game. Grindan is not banned yet, but I would also remove him: the starting earth with slow is a cheat :)

Regarding various Dragons, Mutare, and others from Wog – I would not even write about them in the rules, as Wog is a different game.

(and these heroes will never appear in random maps, they may appear in fixed maps, but we don't play on fixed maps).

excerpts from the rules

Online battles are held on any version of HoMM3.

These rules imply games on random maps, but games on fixed maps will also be taken into account in the rating. If a report is written and confirmed by the opponent.

2) And regarding the upgrade of vampires – if it's about the bone dragonlings, I can assure you that I will almost certainly use them in the first days of the second week.

Then we won't let you play Necromancer :smile04:

In reply to invisible

Registered: 12/8/2007

Posts: 36

#33 1/23/2008 12:23 PM UTC

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invisible;146189

I don't fully agree here:
Ciel has an archer that attacks for 60 damage and has enough mana for 6 shots right from the start. And after gaining a couple of levels, her archer will deal 100 damage, which is much more impressive compared to Solmyr, whose chain lightning deals around 110 damage and costs 1 mana per cast. Ciel looks much scarier.
As for Luna, if you conduct the battle skillfully, you can defeat 7 monsters in the early days of the game. Grindan is not prohibited yet, but I would also remove him: starting with slow is a cheat. :)

Okay, I'm convinced about Ciel, I agree... Luna is effective against monsters, her magic rules. But a human won't be stupid enough to charge head-on (and besides, we can also fight monsters with Solmyr and specialists in earth magic, and also clear level 7...). Grindan: well, in the beginning, you probably won't immediately grab powerful spells, even with Mass Slow (unless it's just the first level), because he's a mage, and his combat parameters are zero. Mass Slow and Tazar can theoretically be obtained in the first week (as it happened in my game with Discriminator, where I had Mass Earth on the Necropolis on day 4 or 5, and Slow could be learned right in the swamp hut near the castle, but there was no point because strength and knowledge were only 1), so I think Grindan should stay; he's definitely not a cheat (and I remember Shakter also got Mass Earth on the third day of the game, and finding Slow is just a matter of technique, but Mass Slow for a fighter with offense or armor is one thing (and no one considers it a cheat), but for a mage, it's a completely different story).

As for the Dragons, Mutare, etc., if these are fixes, then they were created by the map maker, and in that case, they definitely shouldn't be banned. But WoG is not Heroes 3, it's 3.5. And TE is also based on WoG, so it's also 3.5. But in reality, these are completely different games (especially WoG), and a lot of things would have to be added and reworked in the rules to adapt to them. But in TE, there are no banned heroes, no necromancy for the Necropolis, no scrolls, no monsters that can be joined – in general, Horn is smart, and I think I'll switch to it in the future. But for now, we're playing on SoD and Platinum (even though they are different versions, it's still SoD, Heroes 3, not 3.5), so we're making rules and changes for Heroes 3!!!

In reply to Yakudza

Registered: 9/13/2007

Posts: 754

#34 1/23/2008 2:56 PM UTC

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The Moon faction is actually quite strong against monsters; its magic is effective, and humans aren't so foolish as to charge headfirst into a wall (besides, we can also fight monsters with Solmyr and specialists in meteor magic, and even reach level 7...).

But why does the Moon faction need a wall against a player? It's enough that it can easily defeat seven units in the first week. Isn't that enough from a strategic point of view? I repeat: the Moon faction has enough mana for several walls, each of which can deal damage multiple times to multiple units. Solmyr and the meteor magic specialists can only do it once.

Grindan – well, at the beginning, you probably won't immediately start taking on difficult opponents with Masslou (unless it's just a single one); he's a mage, and his combat stats are zero.

Well, Grindan, like the Moon faction, has enough to upgrade Earth magic to break through difficult defenses in the first week, and then it's never too late to start developing a fighter.

and Masslou and Tazar can theoretically get it in the first week.

But they might not get it :) Lately, Tazar has been getting Intelligence as his second skill :D

In reply to Yakudza

Registered: 4/29/2007

Posts: 11,704

#35 1/23/2008 3:55 PM UTC

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Regarding the heroes: Mutara, Mutara Drake, Xeron (Devils:smile51:), Dragon, Jelu, Kilgor, Roland, Catherine, Baragus, and Lord Haart in WoG have the same specialty as in SoD. Therefore, Jelu, Dragon, and Adriana should be banned (in my opinion, she's better than Luna and Ciel). The others don't seem to have anything like that. Although Xeron, Kilgor, and Lord Haart give +10 damage, but I don't think that's very relevant, considering that in SoD on Random maps, they aren't present, few people play on fixed maps, and those who play WoG often don't care about the rules!

Mullich should be thrown out!!! If he's from the prison, give him +1 level and send him to retirement!

Heroes like Loïnis, Coronius, Xeron (Inferno), and Ksarfax are up to you; you can ban them or leave them. There's not much point in banning Xeron if he doesn't even have mana at the start, even on Inferno, but who knows, maybe he'll end up in prison, say, at level 20 with expert Fire Magic and Intelligence, then Inferno might actually be good :smile51:! I can't say for sure here...

Regarding the Amplifier. In my opinion, it should be banned, but if not, then ban building more than one Amplifier. With two Amplifiers, for example, all Necromancers will have expert Necromancy, which will give as much as 50%!! That's just not serious...

In reply to Yakudza

Registered: 12/30/2007

Posts: 1,084

#36 1/23/2008 4:11 PM UTC

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Loins doesn't use any cheats, but let's also ban him, just in case, so it's easier to remember.

,
IMHO, that's not entirely correct. Why limit the game? In my opinion, it's best to adhere to the principle: everything should be allowed unless it's prohibited.

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In reply to Loi

Registered: 10/24/2007

Posts: 381

#37 1/24/2008 8:14 AM UTC

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loi;146245

,
In my opinion, this isn't entirely correct. Why limit the game? I think it's best to adhere to the principle: everything should be allowed that isn't prohibited.

There are too many restrictions on heroes, which makes the game less enjoyable. Mages, who are powerful in the early game, are significantly weakened. It's a real problem.

Let me try to express my humble opinion:
Mulich should not be higher than level 3 (because he's really overpowered).
Isthar and Vidomina (specialists in necromancy) should not have their necromancy skill raised to expert level; otherwise, it becomes difficult to play them, and you have to take all skills. Also, necromancers shouldn't build the enhancement.
All magic specialists (levels 2-4) should use magic against opponents after building the corresponding level, finding the relevant spell in the Pandora or spellbook. Let the mages develop...
Start with Necropolis and Conflux with a random hero, and then it's all about luck: who you get, who you find, there are many development options.

You calculate how much damage Ciel deals, and that's fine if she appears with a random hero, because if air units haven't been built and a second hero hasn't arrived (which often happens), how can you fight 50 butterflies when there's no blessing in the tower, and you need to defeat 80 zombies or shooters? That's when you can start with Conflux thanks to this ranged attack.

Fewer restrictions, except for reasonable ones, and let the battles begin!
Good luck with your games, best regards, Vitaly

In reply to vitalic

Registered: 12/8/2007

Posts: 36

#38 1/24/2008 10:48 AM UTC

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The Necropolis can come not only for the Conflux but also for any other Castle. At the Conflux, the mages already have 3/3 stats from the start, which is not the case for any other Castle (2/3 or 3/2 is the highest for others). They can also use their spells to attack more powerfully and in a more overpowered way than with other Castles (and considering that one of the elements is already available from the start, reducing the spell cost and increasing the damage). As for battles only with butterflies, someone is getting carried away here... And what about the army from the third hero, does it not exist? In general, restrictions were specifically introduced for the Conflux so that it wouldn't be as overpowered at the beginning as it is from the second week, with its overpowered bird growth and elementals with mass damage, as well as the strongest tier 2 ranged units in the game. And all this is still with the magical support of the most powerful mages in the game in terms of skills (and the tower is built immediately). You can also recruit Storms and fight with them (or, if you want, you can also create butterflies and crush everything on the first map without upgrading air units, since there are few of them – in this case, you need to choose one or the other... (although if you have a good start with air units or their support, then you can kill everyone on the first map even better than with other Castles, even without upgrading them)

In reply to Yakudza

Registered: 10/24/2007

Posts: 381

#39 1/24/2008 2:21 PM UTC

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Yakudza;146394

The "Conflux" can be targeted, but also any other castle...

You, sir, misunderstood me. Let's ban logistics experts, defense and attack specialists, monster specialists, etc., and we'll get...
There is always a counter for any hero, so I suggest limiting the number of heroes and speeding up the battles!

Tournaments were held where opponents chose each other's starting heroes, and these heroes had to remain the main ones until the end of the game. (That's where you had to play as a navigation specialist, etc.). So, is it better to ban a dozen heroes and play as a navigator on a map without water, or have a full-fledged game with various storylines?

In reply to Yakudza

Registered: 11/25/2007

Posts: 339

#40 1/27/2008 1:24 PM UTC

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Played two games yesterday and today. In one, I had the spells Town Portal, Fly, and Dimension Door – I won. In the other game, my opponent had the same spells – he won. Conclusion: having complete control means a 100% guaranteed, undeniable win. Judge for yourselves. Limiting Dimension Door to once a day is good. But the combination of Dimension Door and Fly provides a good movement bonus. And Town Portal is not limited at all; you can teleport as much as you want, gather an army from all castles in one day, and hero chains are no longer needed. Therefore, I propose limiting the use of any transportation spell to once a day, i.e., either Dimension Door, Fly, or Town Portal.

http://dreamcatcher.metroland.ru/

In reply to Dreamcatcher

Registered: 12/15/2006

Posts: 1,018

#41 1/27/2008 2:02 PM UTC

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Dreamcatcher;147077

Here's a suggestion: limit the use of any transportation spell to once per day, meaning only one use of either Dimension Door, Fly, or Teleport.

I think I'll support your suggestion as well.
Although, as far as I remember, we rarely developed to the point of using transportation spells. :smile13:

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In reply to Dreamcatcher

Registered: 9/13/2007

Posts: 754

#42 1/27/2008 2:15 PM UTC

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Dreamcatcher;147077

I played two games yesterday and today. In one, I had the spells Town Portal, Fly, and Dimension Door – I won. In the other game, my opponent had the same spells – he won. Conclusion: having complete control means a 100% guaranteed, undeniable win. Judge for yourselves. Limiting Dimension Door to once a day is good. But the combination of Dimension Door and Fly gives a good bonus to movement. And Town Portal is not limited at all; you can teleport as much as you want, gather an army from all castles in one day, and hero chains are no longer needed.
Hence, my suggestion: limit the use of any transportation spell to once a day, i.e., once, either Dimension Door, Fly, or Town Portal.

I support that! I've thought about this a lot myself.

In reply to Yakudza

Registered: 9/26/2007

Posts: 192

#43 1/27/2008 3:30 PM UTC

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Guys, I'm speechless. That's all I can say.

SS-D:smile17:

In reply to SS-D

Registered: 12/8/2007

Posts: 36

#44 1/27/2008 5:50 PM UTC

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SS-D;147106

Guys, this is outrageous. That's all I can say.

+1 This kind of restriction is too much... The game is already heavily nerfed, there's no need to cut it down even more. Instead, you should try to control the resource acquisition, if you're afraid of your opponent doing it. Otherwise, the game will become a pale imitation of Heroes, and it won't be interesting to play anymore...

In reply to SS-D

Registered: 4/29/2007

Posts: 11,704

#45 1/27/2008 6:25 PM UTC

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SS-D;147106

Guys, this is outrageous. That's all I can say.

On one hand, cutting everything down is already an outrage, but on the other hand, unfortunately, there is some truth to it...
For example, if we introduce this ban, it creates a problem with angel wings; if you wear wings, then Teleport and Dimension Door will no longer be allowed...

In my opinion, the current ban on Dimension Door is quite sufficient.

But if we still need to cut something, I would suggest the following: leave Teleport without restrictions, and choose either Dimension Door or Fly, but only one of the two, and Dimension Door can be used only once a day.