Connection ErrorBad RequestSession ExpiredSign in requiredForbiddenNot FoundToo Many RequestsServer ErrorBad GatewayService UnavailableGateway TimeoutHTTP Version Not Supported
Session Expired
Your session has expired. Please log in to continue.
Sign in required
You need an account to do that. Sign in or create one — it only takes a minute.
Request Failed
We encountered an issue while processing your request.
Please check your internet connection and try again.
Let me clarify why I asked my question. Initially, it wasn't mentioned that there was "no money" :), hence my conclusion. Now it's clear. Thank you.
and I'm saying the same thing, maybe they mixed up the topics, they're coming up with conditions on the fly. I was just basing my answer on the average, taking one of the situations as an example.
Dark Messiah
Sforza
Auto-translated
Why spend money on building? Barbarians are already great, even without money. They take what they need from others. I play on random maps at 200%, with a patch that increases starting gold to 2500. I recruit Gurnisson with a ballista. If the heroes have orcs in their squad, it's even easier. We protect them with goblins placed one by one and start shooting. The first and second levels of neutral creatures die with almost no losses. Then, either we add orcs (spending 1000 gold is like recovering from just one looted chest), or we add birds. If there are computer-controlled factions, we capture their Castle, and that's how we get more money. It's good to build monsters, but it's not always possible in the first week. But birds and a Stronghold (or preferably a Castle) are ready by day 7. As soon as there's enough money for a second small army, it appears and also starts earning money. It's like this: the more money you spend on the army, the more powerful objects it will conquer, and the more money you'll have in the end. It's good to accumulate strong monsters in the Castle – not only monsters but also birds and ogres. If you're lucky and the map has angels in conservatories and wyverns in Hives, that's even better. And then, the utopias of dragons crack like cans of sardines under the mighty paws of gray behemoths. This happens around week 4, but if you're lucky, you can do it in week 3.
to ALL I feel that if we don't come up with something, these arguments will be endless... A request for everyone, especially for the "smart" ones: please indicate the map type before ridiculing or imposing your development tactics; otherwise, it causes confusion and misunderstanding among beginners, and disagreement among more advanced players. Example:Gynnar;129794
Only very weak players build only money structures at the beginning:mad:, and by doing so, you will lose to even mid-tier players almost constantly. Even with 200% bonus, you shouldn't build more than a Town Hall, and if this building hinders the pace of the game (as a result, you won't be able to buy a hero for the chain or an army to break through), then you can do without it....
and so on in the text....
User Gynnar dared to present such a tactic as universal, but IMHO it doesn't work in at least 75% of cases; I'll explain why: This tactic (apparently) is intended for Random maps + most likely maps of a certain template + on the TE version, etc.
P.S. A request to all beginners (especially from other resources): please somehow characterize the conditions under which your tactic works.
to ALL I feel that if we don't come up with something, these arguments will be endless... A request for everyone, especially for the "smart" ones: please indicate the map type before criticizing or imposing your development tactics; otherwise, it will confuse newcomers and create misunderstandings, and among more experienced players, it will cause disagreement. Example: and continue with the text....
User Gynnar dared to present such a tactic as universal, but in my opinion, it doesn't work in at least 75% of cases; I'll explain why: This tactic (apparently) is intended for Random maps + most likely maps of a certain template + on the TE version, etc.
P.S. A request to all newcomers (especially from other resources): please describe the conditions under which your tactic works.
Well, you are not entirely right.... First of all, this is a universal tactic for all random map templates (and for easy ones, like Ring, and for difficult ones, like Meeting of Mazgobs (standard Sod's templates), and even more so for custom-made maps. I played a lot and for a long time, both on all Sod's templates, and then on custom-made ones, at various difficulty levels, and everywhere, even when playing in a fast battle, the tactic I proposed (not to focus on finances, but to immediately build an army, buy it, buy many heroes and immediately start fighting with it, developing the future main hero and transferring troops in a chain to take artifacts, money, and resources from monsters, and quickly explore the territory and collect freely available resources with additional heroes) was the most optimal tactic, leading to victory over the opponent. As for fixed maps, only this tactic makes sense there, because opponents are often located close to each other, and if you don't buy as many heroes as possible from the first day and immediately build the army, trying to steal money, resources, and artifacts from the opponent, then defeat is inevitable, even with a super advantage at the beginning (playing with a couple of heroes, not fighting immediately, but only focusing on money, is clearly not a strategy for fixed maps, even against the AI; I can authoritatively say this, as I attended almost all tournaments live as a spectator, organized by Maestro Horn for fixed maps in St. Petersburg). Furthermore, everything I write applies primarily to SOD!!!!! (although almost all tips and tactics are also valid in TE, as it is the same SOD (and not another game, like Wog or Heroes 4, 5), but specifically modified for convenience, and primarily for balancing multiplayer games (player vs. player).
Now, please explain, based on what considerations did you draw your conclusions (about the fact that my tactic is only suitable for random maps and certain templates, and that "+for the TE version") and why, having accused a "newcomer from another resource" (me), who "dared to present such a tactic," but at the same time is "especially "smart"" (since you put the word "smart" in quotes, it means the opposite, as I understand), did not "indicate the map type before criticizing or imposing your development tactics; otherwise, it will confuse newcomers and create misunderstandings, and among more experienced players, it will cause disagreement" (I explained that my tactic is universal, and I did not impose my tactic on anyone or ridicule anyone (I only pointed out the tactics of weak players and the tactics of good players), so you accuse me of this (although, as I showed, it is unfounded) - but why, at the same time, did you not explain how and why you thought that (quoting your words): Alex_R;130536
"my tactic (apparently) is intended for Random maps + most likely maps of a certain template + on the TE version, etc.".
although you, as you write, are an experienced player, and many would be interested (and especially me) in why you think so?)
The prefecture will pay for itself in 3 days (even with a margin), not 5. Therefore, the rest of your statement doesn't hold any "value."
Classic:D :D :D Ley, how did you calculate? You divided 2500 by a thousand:D :D :D But you should have divided by 500, because building a prefecture gives your kingdom an incremental income increase of 500 gold... In short: money today is worth more than money tomorrow.... That's why five days isn't entirely an objective measure of investing in a prefecture...... But never mind, here's what I'll say:
From an economic (i.e., even ignoring tactics) point of view, buying any hero with "+350 gold" is more attractive than building a prefecture. Firstly: with the hero, you also acquire an army, which also costs money. So, when you calculate the payback period, you should correctly reduce the cost of the hero for calculations by the cost of the troops purchased with him. Then, if the hero has more than 750 gold worth of monsters (which seems to be the case with all "+350" heroes, if you look at the creature descriptions), then they are "more interesting" from the point of view of investment. Secondly: the hero brings you resources, chests, external dwellings, participates in quest chains, and can ultimately develop "assets" - i.e., brings additional benefits that you shouldn't ignore either... (and here we can think about how much 1000 gold is worth on the first day of the game, and how much it is worth at the end of the first month) A special case is when you have enough money for both the prefecture and the purchase of a "+350" hero.
In short, the statement that investing in the economy of cities in the early game is a beneficial undertaking is far from being an absolutely correct statement.
Fireball
Auto-translated
Firstly, this is a universal tactic for all random map templates (and for easy ones, like Ring, and for complex ones, like Meeting of Mazgob - standard Sodov templates).
And also for standard 8MM6, 6LM10, 8XM12, etc.
As for fixed maps, this tactic is the ONLY one that works there.
But here you are wrong. A fixed map is a fixed map; it will be as you design it. Let's take one of the most classic Heroes maps - Dragon Pass (it was in the first games and is still in the fifth, almost unchanged). This tactic clearly won't work there. After all, nothing prevents you from using such a map in a tournament. For example, in the tournament of our SoY portal, there were maps where neglecting the castle's economy was definitely detrimental, and AlexR knows this firsthand. To deny games on such maps means to deny a part of Heroes itself.
to ALL A request for everyone, especially for the "smart" ones: please indicate the map type before criticizing or imposing your development tactics; otherwise, it causes confusion and misunderstanding among beginners, and disagreement among more advanced players.
P.S. A request to all beginners (especially from other resources): please describe the conditions under which your tactics work.
I completely agree. There's a lot of confusion. The question initially was about the Stronghold, and then some conditions appear in the dialogue. Moreover, people don't even bother to read the whole thing.
And also for the standard gameplay of 8MM6, 6LM10, 8XM12, etc.
I don't understand you... If you mean that on these templates, focusing on economy in the first week is justified when playing Multiplayer against another player, then you are deeply mistaken (you named three main SoD templates, on which Tournaments were held). The tactic of focusing on economy is simply disastrous (you can ask good online players about this).
Fireball;130605
But here you are still wrong. A fix is a fix; it will be as you design it. Let's take one of the most classic Heroes maps - Dragon Pass (it was in the first games and is still in the fifth, almost unchanged). This tactic clearly won't work there. After all, no one prevents you from using such a map in a Tournament. For example, in the Tournament of our SoY portal, there were maps where neglecting the castle's economy was definitely disastrous, and AlexR knows this firsthand. To deny games on such maps means to deny part of the Heroes game itself.
Where did you get this information? Have you played on this map against another player using the strategy of focusing on economy and mining heroes first, and then everything else, or do you know of examples where, by focusing on economy and building up the capital first, and then the army, games were won against a good player? Or are you just stating your opinion, which is not supported by anything and is not guaranteed to be correct? When playing against another player, there cannot be fixed maps where the strategy of focusing on economy would be justified (and in general, I don't remember any such map; if you can, send me a version of such a map to my email gynnar@mail.ru, preferably one that is playable for people (and not some perverted version where right at the entrance there is a horde of level 7 creatures, blocking the hero, and besides buildings, there is nothing else to do (and the army is already built, but by buying it, you can't break through this horde - in such a version, yes, besides building up the economy and pressing the E key, there is nothing else to do, but no one will play on such maps))
Fireball
Auto-translated
I don't understand you... If you mean that developing towards economy in the first week is justified on these templates when playing Multiplayer against a human, then you are deeply mistaken (you named three main SoD templates, on which tournaments were held before), the tactic of switching to economy is simply disastrous (you can ask good online players about this).
Indeed, you probably didn't understand me; I should have clarified. You just stated that the tactic of ignoring economy in the Castle is suitable even for the most diverse random templates, and I wanted to clarify that everything said is absolutely true for standard-play templates as well. I agreed with you on this issue, not argued.
Where did you get this information from? Have you played on this map against a human using the scheme of focusing on economy and mining heroes first, and then everything else, or do you know of examples where games were won against a good player by focusing on economy and building the capital first, and then the army? Or are you just stating your opinion, which is not supported by anything and is not guaranteed to be correct?
I have played against a human, but that's not the point. On this map, there are practically no free resources (everything comes from mines), there are no gnomes, nagas, medusas, etc. To leave the starting area, you need to break through a solid group of dragons, the number of which can easily be increased. You don't have to be a genius or a mega-player to understand the impossibility of ignoring economy in this situation. Until enough resources are mined, you still won't be able to build anything. And this is far from the most difficult example. Of course, you can argue that you won't play such maps. It's your choice; some may not agree. But if you have to play, you will definitely change your tactics.
if you can, send me a version of such a map to my email first
This is a standard map, but I think I described it in enough detail. Maybe a mega-player can rush it (in my opinion, no), but if you increase the guard by 2 times, then an early breakthrough will definitely become impossible.
I don't think this place even resembles a Stronghold anymore, don't you think? Let's discuss more global issues in another thread, okay? I think we should be discussing hero development tactics, creature selection, or something similar here?
I played against a human player, but that's not the point. On this map, there are practically no easy resources (everything comes from mines), no Gnomish Tents, Naga, Medusas, etc. To leave the starting area, you need to break through a substantial group of dragons, and their number can easily be increased. You don't need to be a genius or a mega-player to understand the impossibility of ignoring money in such a situation. Until you accumulate enough from the mines, you can't build anything. And this is far from the most extreme example. Of course, you could argue that you wouldn't play such maps. It's your choice, and someone might disagree. But if you have to play them, you will definitely change your tactics.
This is a standard map, but I think I described it in enough detail. Maybe a mega-player could rush it (but I don't think so), but if you increase the guard by 2 times, an early breakthrough will definitely become impossible.
If the map is as you described, then yes, you are right, but it is unlikely that players will play such a map against each other, and it certainly cannot be in a tournament of fixed maps (what is the point of just sitting on the starting area and waiting for several weeks, doing nothing, until money and resources accumulate, and then an army, in order to break through the dragons?). Such a map will only be played against the computer, because skipping turns for about three weeks, only occasionally building something, requires no skill, and people will not be interested in just pressing the "E" key (your example is similar to my example of a twisted map). I already wrote that I provided an example of a tactic for playing against people, and against good players, who, if they play on a fixed map, will only play maps where you can play skillfully every day, showing their mastery, and such twisted maps are already a tactic against the computer, which is something completely different (with the same success, you can give an example of a tactic in any of the campaigns, where troops are already available, and, besides finances, there is nothing to build, or large troops are given at the start, and the point is to have as much money as possible in the second week, since the hero will get diplomacy and will be able to recruit powerful units for money, of course, in all such examples, you need to invest in money), but, in my opinion, I wrote everything clearly and understandably, and I don't understand why you are exaggerating about my posts. If the players here are not interested in what I write, then they should just say so, and I will not write anymore... (but I did not expect that, after I got excited about the idea of Forrest and Papik helping newcomers in the online game against a human player, I would receive a post from Alex_R in response, saying that "how dare a newcomer from another resource (user Gynnar) present such a tactic as universal," because, in his "IMHO, it doesn't work, as it is intended for something else," and what killed me the most is the only explanation that Alex_R comes to such a conclusion - these are his words: "apparently," which, however, does not prevent him from, at the end of the post, based on his words ("apparently"), accusing me of "somehow characterizing the conditions under which your tactic works." And at the same time, he also mentions me as "especially smart" - in quotation marks, which, as you know, implies the opposite (that is, a fool). Well, and in the end, he is immediately encouraged for this post by two users, one of whom is Ta Kotoraya (who, as far as I know, also organizes resource meetings, but at the same time encourages such an attitude of her players towards "especially smart" (in quotation marks) "newcomers from another resource" who "dare to present their tactic").
If a map is as you described it—then yes, you are right, but it is unlikely that human players would play such a map against each other, and it certainly cannot be in a tournament on fixed maps (what interest is there in simply sitting on respawn and waiting for several weeks, doing nothing, while money, resources, and then an army accumulate to break through the dragons). Such a map would only be played against the computer, so in that case, skipping turns for about three weeks, only occasionally building something—no skill is required, and pressing E out of boredom won't interest people at all (your example is similar to mine about a perverse map). I already wrote that I gave an example of a tactic for playing against people, and moreover against good players, who, if they play on fixed maps, will only play those maps where every day can be played competently, showcasing their skill, while such perverse fixed maps are already a tactic against the computer, that's completely different... (with the same success, one could give an example of a tactic in one of the Campaigns, where troops are already built, and aside from finances there is nothing to build, or large armies are already given from the start and the point is to have as much money as possible by the second week, since the hero will get Diplomacy and will be able to recruit powerful units for money; of course, in all such examples, you need to invest in money, but, in my opinion, I wrote everything clearly and distinctly, and why pick at my posts is unclear to me; if the players here are not interested in what I write, then they should just say so directly, and I will not write anymore, rather than insulting me like Alex_R, who, after that, also makes baseless accusations without even explaining what considerations and conjectures lead him to such conclusions, just spewing mud and that's it (you could write at the end of every post that it's all nonsense, lies, and the author is a fool (clever in quotes is nothing other than that), how dare he "write such a thing," and other players even support him in this.... )
Don't be offended; it's just that everyone sees the situation in their own way. No one intends to deliberately annoy another. People here are united by a common topic. Forums are created for discussing or even arguing, after all, truth is born in dispute. It's another matter if you cannot admit your mistake, but even that can be overlooked here. You just need to try to convey everything comprehensively, so to speak, without encroaching on the interests of others, and that's it. Do not despair, because if you are truly knowledgeable in the topic, your experience will certainly be useful to both beginners and seasoned gamers.
Dark Messiah
Fireball
Auto-translated
2Gynnar Yes, everything you say about randomness is correct; anyone who has played at least 10 decent games on random maps will agree. And about the typical tournament maps, you're just too categorical; there are always exceptions, and people are different. You consider Dragon Pass to be a terrible map, but for some, it's a classic, and people still play it, even in Heroes 5. And thank you personally, especially for the topic about difficult battles. It's very useful, even just as knowledge of what types of castles you can encounter without taking too much risk. P.S. We've really strayed from the topic, but honestly, all the main points have already been made; the rest are very specific cases.
Sforza
Auto-translated
Let me clarify. I play on SoD 200%XL with or without a Dungeon. With a Stronghold, Garrison, and the Wood and Stone starting bonus. I play on a patch with 2500 gold, which allows buying a "pawn" for scouting on the first turn. I decided to start under these conditions, and here is what happened. On the first turn, a third hero was bought; nothing was built. On the second turn, nothing was built or bought. On the third turn, Wolf Pen (1000 gold) was built. On the fourth turn, Cliff Nest (2500) was built, and a 4th hero was bought. On the fifth turn, Citadel (2500) was built, and an ogre dwelling was found. On the sixth turn, Orc Tower (1000) was built, and a 5th hero was bought. On the seventh turn, Ogre Fort (2000) was built, an external ogre dwelling was captured, and I bought them. On day 1 of the second week, I bought out the ogres from the external dwelling. This development is neither bad nor good; monsters weren't built, and there is no Castle. I took about eight or nine chests and as many gold piles, plus a couple of campfires. Total construction costs were 9 thousand gold. To this, you need to add 2400 spent on eight ogres from the external dwelling, as well as 7500 for buying out seven rocs and eleven ogres from the castle, whom I gradually bought by capturing money buildings. In total, it cost 18 900. As a result, by the second day of the second week, the Garrison had nineteen ogres and seven roc birds in its squad—not counting a small number of orcs and wolves for padding—and could then split two found hives into sixteen ducks, and subsequently the conservatory into two angels. If I had gone for money... 1. Market plase (500). 2. Town Holl (2500). 3. (Blacksmith (1000). 4. Mage Guild (2000). 5. Sity Holl (5000). 6. Citadel (2500). 7. Castle (5000). That comes to exactly 18500, which is the same amount as in the first case. You'd need 10K for the Capitol, and in the end, you have a tiny army that only starts building up on the second week. Meanwhile, a guy who built an army instead of money buildings no longer needs that money; he can smash a few dwarf dwellings, graves, or medusa nests to provide himself with gold and exp. Obviously, with a large army, the "papa-hero" rules and levels up faster. And if the map is small, you can pay a visit to the "financier" early on with ducks and angels. If you go for money on random maps, there will be a week's lag in leveling and one's meat. For those who don't believe it, try testing both options in-game.
Classic! :D :D :D Hey, how did you calculate that? You divided 2500 by 1000 to get 100 percent? :D :D :D But you should have divided by 500, because building a prefecture gives your kingdom an incremental income increase of 500 gold...
Okay, let's discuss this further... :D
I perfectly understand that /500 = 5 days. But let's consider a more common scenario: near the castle, there are several chests, a couple of gnome pits, a cauldron of imps, and a couple of crypts (in addition to resources and money) - logically, you would think to collect everything, buy heroes, build an army, clear out the crypts, collect resources, and all sorts of money. And finally, you have 2500 gold left over (unfortunately, "extra money" only exists in games :D), and what? Wouldn't you build a prefecture? We build it. From this, it's easy to understand that it will pay for itself in 3 game days. - that's what I meant. Vanechka;130584
Besides, in real life, there's something called the discount rate... I doubt I need to explain this thing in detail.
Could you tell me more about it in a private message (just out of personal interest)?
"Единственное, что можно сказать с уверенностью об удаче - она изменит..."
Source
