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For me, the rules of Heroes Portal are a benchmark because someone, at least, monitors them in some way. Tournaments on HotA and the League have long been dead. The rules of HotA are almost 99% identical to those of Heroes, with some minimal differences, such as ballista shots and other things.
When it was fashionable to stream Paragon runs, streamers calmly dismissed heroes and bought them in the tavern on the same day with full movement points and mana, and did this many times. So, the question arises: what is allowed and what is not? But, as usual, there is no answer to this question. Ideally, the rules should be embedded in the game itself so that the player doesn't have a headache. I hope that HotA will come to this someday.
Added 5 minutes later
scars of reality
I only know about offline tournaments from hearsay, so I apologize in advance if I ask a stupid question, but how can you tell if a player intentionally tried to trigger morale in a battle or not? Because even if you provide a recording of the battle, how can you know if morale dropped, for example, in the 3rd round by chance, or after 20 replays? And if intentionally triggering morale in a battle is prohibited, then it must be checked somehow?
Well, as a former host and referee of such tournaments, I can say that this is a delicate and ambiguous issue. Everything comes down to how important a particular morale is. For example, if it is necessary for 3 specific stacks to have morale triggered in the first round, with a +1 morale bonus, then such a battle will most likely not be counted. But if, for example, it is necessary for morale to be triggered on 2 of any 7 stacks, then this is a completely different probability. In general, each case is individual. But, based on experience, I can say that there are very few maps that require strong morale generation.
scars of reality
5 years ago
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Understood, thank you. That's pretty much what I expected. I guess there's no other way to test things like this.
In some maps, the use of bugs is implied, but it's unclear in which ones, as this isn't stated in the map title (except for something like Bug Race :). And what's left is to ask Marlo, like a living encyclopedia, who has completed a good half of the hardcore maps?) Honestly, understanding this fact has significantly reduced my motivation to complete maps.
There aren't many maps where bugs are required, even among the Chinese ones. Mostly, bugs are needed in small puzzle maps. So, at least in HL, you can play any map without hesitation; I haven't observed any bug exploitation there.
Dandy
5 years ago
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As far as I remember, there was a rule somewhere about either 10 or 20 attempts per battle from your save. If the judges have a question about this battle, they can ask you to replay the battle from your save – if you can’t manage it, then sorry. I agree with this interpretation, so that it’s possible to check all participants and not let this drag on indefinitely. Well, and maps for tournaments were created separately, with a specific idea in mind, and as a rule, this wasn’t necessary. But outside of tournaments, I’m generally ready to mess around with morale/cast/abilities. I don’t understand why the limited human resources of judges from some tournaments should affect my playthrough. By the way, Limes are exactly the kind of maps where this is more necessary. *Dirty_Player – did you play through the map or are you going to play it in the* future? If you’ve played it or have plans to, will you be rolling morale and resistances?
Most players generally won't rely on morale rolls and will look for other methods. And, in reality, morale is perhaps the biggest drawback of complex maps designed for gameplay with limited resources and magic. From a mapmaker's perspective, if a map is planned so that it can be completed without morale rolls, there will inevitably be people who will rely on morale rolls because it will make the game faster and, in the end, the map will turn out to be easy. Therefore, one has to rely on the fact that the player will indeed use morale rolls. In the case of maps similar to Limes, there is no apparent solution to this problem.
As far as I remember, there was a version somewhere about 10 or 20 attempts per battle from your save. If the judges have a question about this battle, they can ask you to replay the battle from your save – if you can't manage it, then sorry. I agree with this interpretation so that all participants can be checked and this doesn't drag on indefinitely.
The rules state the number 25. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but 1 out of 25 corresponds to a probability of 4%, which corresponds to one morale boost with +1. For myself, I interpret this rule as meaning that in any battle, I can count on one custom morale boost. Based on this, I built my walkthroughs in tournaments when I played. As a rule, this was enough in all tournaments with a margin, without using programs. Dandy
But outside of tournaments, I am generally willing to put in the effort with morale/cast/abilities. I don't understand why the limited human resources of the judges from some tournaments should affect my walkthrough. By the way, Lime maps are exactly the kind of maps where this is more necessary.
I fully share this approach. If there is one key battle and it is necessary, then I am ready to spend 1000 attempts on it. Dandy
*Dirty_Player - did you complete the map or are you going to complete it in the future? If you have completed it or have plans to do so, will you roll for morale and resistances?
I haven't completed the map; I messed up the leveling in the first attempt. But I have a plan for completing it, and I don't see any difficult moments. I just can't play the map for fun; I definitely need to speedrun it, so in real time, the walkthroughs take a very long time. I can't sit down and start clicking for fun, as if I were playing online. If I realize that I can save a day somewhere, then I will roll back and improve... I will definitely roll for morale in some key battles and resistances in the battle with the computer. I suspect that this map will take at least a month of my real time, and I can't afford such a luxury at the moment.
scars of reality
5 years ago
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Morale can be ignored. I've won many battles without morale, and some even with negative morale, when there's a lack of leadership. But it seems there's no escaping the need to acquire resistances. Enemy heroes mostly rely on offensive magic, and minimizing losses through resistances seems quite appropriate here. Of course, you can launch the AI into your own castles before a battle so they can learn some earthquake or slow spells, and not just rely on lightning or meteor showers.
Honestly, I didn't expect such a buzz to be generated around this map. I tried playing it out of curiosity and started a rather slow discussion in a completely different thread. I thought I'd exchange a couple of comments with Marlo and that would be it. But it all turned into such a frenzy that some people are even considering replaying it, others are thinking about conducting some experiments, and some are planning to speedrun it. In a way, I'm starting to feel like a provocateur. It's up to you, of course, but is it worth spending so much time and effort on this?
Sometimes, discussing a map is more interesting than actually playing through it :D
Marmot
5 years ago
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During a discussion about completing "First Blood" on HeroesPortal, someone mentioned that advanced players now focus on studying maps in the editor and Prospector, creating an "ideal" walkthrough plan starting with an "ideal" starting save. Generating such a save, considering all the requirements, can take a significant amount of time. However, in my opinion, truly well-designed and prepared maps are so thoughtfully crafted that there's no need to generate a special starting save – unless someone specifically wants to attempt a speedrun. Regarding morale/luck drops in battles: if a battle is won solely due to morale/luck drops, especially if it happens more than once, or due to other creature abilities (fear, disease, petrification...), and the battle is lost without them, it's a sign of poor map design, and such outcomes shouldn't be counted in tournaments. It's acceptable only in playthroughs "for fun." And, of course, if someone has already completed a map and then wants to set a personal record or complete it in speedrun mode, they can decide which techniques are "allowed" to use. And finally, exploiting bugs is a separate category, no longer related to competitive play – it's purely "for fun."
scars of reality
5 years ago
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If the map isn't too difficult, no one will probably spend time generating a starting save. I remember playing the Heroes of Might and Magic map "Devil in the Details." It's relatively challenging, but not extremely so. In that game, I had Caitlin as my main hero with a special ability that gave +350 gold. I bought her in the tavern at the very beginning to generate income, and I practically completed the entire map and all the battles with her, without paying much attention to her secondary skills. I only rolled 1000 gold at the start, and the rest was distributed somewhat evenly.
But on difficult maps, it's sometimes extremely desirable to get a good starting artifact or resources, or for the hero's skill tree to be suitable. It's not very pleasant to reach 20% of the way through a map and encounter an "unpleasant surprise" like some useless secondary skills. In that case, you have to experiment a bit even before starting the playthrough.
Also, I wanted to ask if anyone (besides Marlo, of course) has recently played Obi's newly released map, Burning Lands?
Tazar is a mage*:D*The idea is that in a new playthrough, there will be only one major difference, namely the timing of the battle with Lucifer. It will be moved from the second month to the beginning or middle of the third month.
Apparently, no one. Maybe you could share your impressions?
A typical map from the series of "beat it in one day" maps, similar to BIOD or Nine Riddles, but with its own specific features. The map is interesting, but in my opinion, there is too much randomness.
After this Polish "drug-induced experience," I decided to take a closer look at what it is. I managed to complete some of the battles relatively easily. But a couple of them seem too complicated. And I don't really feel like spending a week trying to figure them out. I thought maybe someone else has tried to complete this map and has some thoughts on it.
Of course, I could contact the author or the tester, but that's a last resort. First, it's more interesting to discuss certain moments with other players and try to find a solution. And then, if nothing works, I can ask for advice from the people who were directly involved in creating the map.
UPD The question is resolved. I completed it myself.
