Posts from Changes to the rules starting with the letter G (Graal and Galtran).

Maybe on all templates? If you're going to do something, do it right!

Your idea is heading in the right direction...

And another question. How strong is the Grail in the Tower compared to the Conflux, to the point where they could be considered equals? Yes, it's a great bonus, no doubt, but it's still not full control.

There are many unpleasant things in the rules, I think there's no need to add more.
As for the topic, I believe you can dig for the Grail only when the cross is revealed on the fogged map. Otherwise, you can cheat however you want here and no one will be able to prove anything — all you can say is that you were digging blindly.
As for banning Galthran — I'm against it, he's pleasant and interesting to play. And you can even pay more, what's stopping you? There's a lot of gold on Jebus Cross, the cost of an uppercut stack, and you don't really need to build much if there are plenty of objects. So bids closer to 10k aren't really that scary.
As for Conflux, it's high time to simplify it — allow choosing a hero, except Luna, but playing random is just plain stupid. Allow upgrading the 6th level.

Limiting Galtran is foolishness; it's just an out-of-game balance change. He will simply change, and that's it. Castle on Jebus Cross, even in SOD, I rate about the same as one branch. Now ban upgrading to Archangels? I am generally in favor of choosing heroes and for Conflux!

I fully support Hell regarding Galtran. Many players trade for Castle and Dungeon immediately for 10k, especially against Inferno or Tower — and that's not even mentioning Necro. As Tvarina correctly said on stream, a 10k trade on Jebus Cross is no more than a 1-2 day tempo loss!

Added after 3 minutes

For the second CIS tournament in a row, we've been discussing Grail abuse for hours. I believe that specifically on Mini-Nost, it is dug up in half the games, unbalancing the dynamics of that template. Conclusion — it needs fixing

On Smka, the Grail is also dug up in half the games. So, should we choose templates to ban the Grail? When you dig up the Grail, it feels like you picked a max-utopia and got KZ, Wings, and +15 All! Against banning the Grail!

Even without the Grail and Galtram, there are too many restrictions; it's better to play SOD without house rules, in my opinion (that's how the developers intended it). And if you're going to change anything, it's better to remove some of the restrictions rather than add more.

Why remove the Grail from HotA? It's just another aspect of the game. Why should everyone be deprived of the Grail because of one player? Apparently, many people are too lazy to take screenshots and find it. It's a matter of approach to the game; maybe we should also remove the Tower and just rush to the Throne like in Heroes III.

Regarding the raised issues, both options seem reasonable to me. Although personally, I would not want a ban on the Grail (maybe restrictions like in HotA — requiring the building of a lookout tower in Conflux) and a ban on Goshan (you can also lose spectacularly with him to some Castle player :smile39: ).

Since rule changes are already being discussed, perhaps it makes sense to address a few more controversial points? For example, regarding Jebus Cross.

1) Does it make sense to keep the current version of the rules with the mandatory breakthrough of the guard zone in every passage? Along with the accompanying things that you can fly over a guard zone, but you cannot bypass it from the side.

2) What about the mechanics of objective restarts? Specifically, the use of subjective restarts.

The rules say:

- Restarts at the player's request,
...
b) who lacks a continuous road leading from the starting castle to the central treasure zone within the starting zone,
are taken on the day these facts are discovered. If subjective restarts remain, one subjective restart is spent at the player's choice (i.e., on day 124 an available restart from day 111 can be used). If subjective restarts are exhausted, the player is entitled to demand an additional restart.

According to the letter of the rules (correct me if I'm wrong), if you play on without spending restarts, and then on day 117 discover that there is no road to the guard zone, you'll have to spend all remaining rests, i.e., day 113. This is quite a contentious point. :smile17: It would be advisable to write this more clearly. And perhaps limit the spending of subjective rests to cases with unbreakable blocks. Or directly limit the number of burned restarts to one.

• The problem with the random map generation isn't that the rules are outdated, but rather that players are forgetful (perhaps due to their expertise). Also, the punishment is inadequate – the time penalty. Why not, for example, a fine of 1000-3000 gold with a restart? There are many established conventions for the first day of the week on foreign resources, and there's a reason for that. If there's a logical and rational justification, any rule will be relevant. Especially if there are some statistical data and comparisons to support it. But that's not the case. Therefore, the changes are purely emotional and impulsive. Why change something for the worse?
• Regarding Necro-Galthran. The problem lies only in the starting units. Again, where's the statistics? How much does Galthran outperform Logisticians, Tazi, and similar units? On large maps, any Necromancer can be useful, as well as on small maps. It's harder to compare on Jebus, but obviously, Galthran is much stronger. In the last Jebus tournament (which was in 2014), Galthran had a total advantage. In 17 starts with Necro and Galthran (no other hero was chosen, by the way), 4 games were lost – three times to the Miner and once to Kirr. But that still doesn't mean anything. I play Jebus with a friend, and both Necropolis and other factions are allowed on the map. It's all relative. Today, bears beat everyone, tomorrow, archers, and then – even logisticians will wear them down.
• Regarding the Grail. Again, where's the statistics? How much more critical is digging for it compared to Logisticians, Kregg-Thar, Necromancers, Knights of the Shield...? Allow digging everywhere. Ban the computer from digging first. The Grail is a good countermeasure, adding variety. If you think that on some map, it guarantees a win, then you can say the same about a Necromancer, Logisticians, Pandora, Relic, etc., arriving at the right time. More directions for development to smooth out the randomness.
They gave Mullich freedom, and what did he do? That is, he was wrongly banned. Even if CMs don't play, that's still the case.
• I'm more puzzled by the flawed practice of trading. This is a clear pseudo-tournament element. A game of chance, a tool against newbies, i.e., a discriminatory factor. How can you bargain for a hypothetical scenario – are there any sane people left? Why not use the "Cherk" method or alternative ways of choosing heroes? Game factors are more important for the game, not what you concocted before it started. And don't manipulate the assertion that this is an important part of the game. It's also a waste of time, which you are constantly fighting for... with endless restarts. Especially when they take three restarts and play some trash. I digress...
• And they made an irreparable mistake with the wording of the rules. Instead of clear and concise, prohibiting rules, they made them vague and convoluted, and added unnecessary, burdensome additions. If we return to the "Rules for Creating Rules" (they are hidden in the depths of the forum, on the main page) or to the original ones, then the use of the Admiral's Hat would not be justified, but would be severely condemned.

According to the rules (correct me if I'm wrong), if you play without using any restarts and then, on turn 117, discover that there's no way to win, you'll have to spend all the remaining restarts, i.e., 113.

As far as I understand, only 111 are spent.

According to the rules (correct me if I'm wrong), if you play without spending restarts and then on day 117 realize there's no way to reach the Goal, you'll have to spend all the remaining restarts, i.e., 113. This is a rather debatable point. :smile17: It would be advisable to state this more clearly. And, perhaps, limit the spending of subjective restarts to cases with unbreakable blocks. Or directly limit the number of restarts spent to one.

I found this quote from the rules:

If subjective restarts remain, then one day of subjective restarts is spent (i.e., on day 112, we take a restart on day 111).

It refers to restarting on a block, but since it's not explicitly stated in the "optional" restarts that all restarts are spent, it seems that it can also be applied in this case. Although, of course, it would be better to formulate it more clearly.

1. Keep Grail (just fix Conflux somehow — need to think about it)
2. Keep Gosha as is
3. Remove RR since there is already trading for color.

• It's completely unclear from the red-rash. The problem lies in the forgetfulness (probably expert-level) of the players, not in the rule being outdated. And also in the inadequacy of the punishment – tech loss. Why not, for example, a fine of 1000-3000 coins with a game restart?

That's why changes to the rules shouldn't lead to excessive complexity. For violating the rules, even in the slightest – tech loss upon the opponent's request (it's not a given that they will demand it if you accidentally break the rules). However, the interpretation of the rules should not be ambiguous.

I would keep the Grail as it is, but might add a clause allowing it to be placed after the deadline of 131+ or 141+. The later the deadline, the less the Grail matters.
As for banning Gosh'han, what's the point? Castles also often give 10k, but that's no reason to ban Archangels :smile42:
I'd like to raise an issue regarding Tanta. I consider him a wild imba on XL+U (and not only) maps, roughly on the same level as the aforementioned banned Gosh'han. Why can't Conflux heroes be picked from the start, while Tanta, who on medium-sized roads with a standard Necro tempo takes Dragon Utopias easily in the second week, can be? :smile24:

Reading through these threads with arguments and opinions from most players makes me want to play this wonderful game less and less...
The Grail is a gimmick? You can't figure it out, so you complain? Seriously?:smile35:

After reading some of these threads with arguments and reasoning from the majority, it makes me less and less willing to play this wonderful game...
Grail a gimmick? You can't dig and that's why you're whining? Seriously?:smile35:

You're not digging, so you're freaking out :D
Let's at least sum up some results at this point:
1. The majority agree that the Grail in Conflux is imba, in the others (maybe Tower is an exception) it doesn't particularly affect the gameplay, maybe even Necro. The Grail is especially decisive on small templates due to the map size and consequently easier to find.
2. Many also don't want to touch Goshana because without completely removing it from the game at the software level, it turns into something akin to roulette, where it might come or it might not, almost like with Conflux, it could be a fish or a moner, sraker or Gosha...
3. Regarding red-rush, it's a very interesting story; on small templates it seems necessary because growth often decides the outcome, but there was so much trouble due to timer mistakes/rushing and simply not knowing some aspects of the game, and often these fights decided almost nothing, but created awkward situations. There's only one way out: leave everything as is, or completely cancel RR on all templates, and then color will become the main priority on m200 (and who else plays those? :smile50: ) and possibly on some L-maps.