Changes to the rules starting with the letter G (Graal and Galtran). — Tournament History

Dirty_Player

8 years ago

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The project to change the rules is almost ready. If everything is clear regarding Red Rush, there are two nuances that we cannot agree on within the AC. One of these nuances surfaced (in all senses of the word) at the current CIS championship – the Grail. Players are complaining, which means there is a problem. We are waiting for a discussion on this issue; there are many different options.

The second question has been brewing for a long time – starting with Galthran on Jebus. Galthran, as a starting hero, is prohibited on all templates, but historically, it has been possible to start with him on Jebus. Previously, this was explained by the fact that "without Gosh, the Necropolis on Jebus will be at the level of a Fortress." However, as games on other templates show, the Necropolis performs well even without him. In addition, the presence of Galthran brings some trades to the point of absurdity, forcing players to bargain for insane amounts, and sometimes even up to 10k. Or maybe this is a fabricated problem, and nothing needs to be changed? Let's discuss.

P.S.: All the discussion concerns SoD.

=Lizard=

8 years ago

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1. If any other player from the CIS region had won instead of Reddi, no one would have complained about the Grail. But can you analyze a puzzle as clearly as that? Personally, I can't.

2. Banning Galtran is, overall, a half-measure, and therefore pointless. Either he should be completely removed from the game (as in HotA), or all bans on all templates should be lifted. The situation where someone snags Galtran in the tavern while starting with another hero is much more absurd than the crazy bidding wars for him. In the bidding wars, each player knows exactly what they're getting into and what they're paying for.

BISHOP

8 years ago

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I remember back in the distant 2000s, when I first started playing in Chaos League tournaments, there was a clear regulation regarding the Grail: please dig, but you can't place it in Conflux and Tower! It's a perfectly reasonable restriction, since the bonus in these 2 towns is far too significant.
As for Goshan, my opinion is that it should be left as is.

Russel_lDHl

8 years ago

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I understand that since there's no poll, this will be a constructive discussion. That is, discussing the pros and cons of refining the initial SOD (Strategic Options Draft). Suggestion: a partial, but easily implementable solution (by including a checkbox for obelisks or prohibiting the construction of the Grail until turn 131): allow the Grail only on maps where there is no division of players' zones of influence. A mini-map, for example, could look like a map where half of it belongs to red, and the other half to blue. Thus, on such maps, by spending resources on searching for the Grail, one of the sides simply won't have a chance to bring these efforts to a successful conclusion. What Redwhite demonstrated in the final of the CIS tournament, by breaking through to the Grail of Order and on the opponent's territory and successfully digging it up, is impressive, but I still think there was an initial imbalance in the position. Otherwise, there should be a variety of options in the game; completely excluding the Grail, as well as having the red sphere in its current form, is, in my opinion, a reduction of the game and a decrease in its variability.

Wicc

8 years ago

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Digging for the Grail is, perhaps, the most spectacular moment of a match; the chat gets excited, and viewers who return from a break first ask: "Well? Did he dig it up?"

The ban on placing the Grail in Tower and Conflux will lead to a loss of purpose in digging — only these towns justify the cost of digging.

Dark

8 years ago

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The cleanup of Galtran on Jebus Cross will devalue the Necro Castle to the point of unreality; without him, this Castle is nothing in terms of FB. Tant can easily handle guards and ТО, but in FB, he will be useless, for example. Also, Clavius is unlikely to replace Galthran on Jebus Cross.
As for the Grail, well, ban building it until week three, for one, and definitely ban it in certain castles, for example Tower (since it negates the rule banning the Cartographer, and the Grail partially overrides that rule) and Conflux (too imbalanced). Or something like that :)

By the way, when I wrote my post, I hadn't read the previous ones, and I mentioned Conflux and Tower on my own, so it really does turn out to be imbalanced.

Grizvald

8 years ago

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Make a 50x50 cell mystery map and remove the current boundaries for the Grail's placement on it. ;)
As for Galtran on Jebus Cross, it's fine, lockers already know how to deal with him.

In reply to =Lizard=

Dirty_Player

8 years ago

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=Lizard=

1. Anyone but Reddi would have won the CIS tournament, and no one would have complained about the Grail. But can you analyze the puzzle as clearly as that? I personally can't.

Are you kidding? The discussion about the Grail has been going on in the AK section for about 1.5, maybe even 2 years. We still can't come to a consensus. All this time, there have been complaints from different players, and it's not just Reddi who's involved.

=Lizard=

2. Banning Galthran is, in general, a half-measure, and therefore, nonsense. Either he should be completely removed from the game (like in HotA), or all bans on all templates should be lifted. The situation where someone snags Galthran in the tavern while starting with another faction is much more absurd than the crazy bidding for him.

Why bring up "HotA" all the time? The question was quite specific. There's no way to physically ban heroes in SoD, but we have to live with that, right? :smile45: And people start with Conflux and snag overpowered heroes – it's fine, they manage. You can snag Kirr for the Tower and Gunnarr for the Castle, and in 90% of cases, they change the starting hero. I personally take a philosophical approach to the issue of "snagging something at the start." You can snag Gosh in the tavern, or you can find a Minotaur lair near a dungeon; it's just that everyone snags something when the map is generated (mirror templates have a different philosophy, of course).

=Lizard=

During bidding, each player knows exactly what they're getting into and what they're paying for.

This is precisely the sticking point, which is why the discussion arose. After all, we're not playing anarchy.

Added 2 minutes ago

Dark

Removing Galthran from Jebus will devalue the Necropolis Castle to an unrealistic extent.

The question is whether it will "devalue it to an unrealistic extent" (Inferno, Tower) or "slightly lower it to an average level" (Ramp, Conflux). That's why he appeared on Jebus.

Added 1 minute ago

Wicc

Digging for the Grail is probably the most spectacular moment of a game; the chat gets excited, and returning viewers from a smoke break ask first: "So, how's it going? Did you dig it up?"

The most spectacular thing is watching the opponents rage after the game (during it) :D

In reply to Dark

Sevan_80

8 years ago

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1. Since trading is the main focus in most games, red-rush should be removed entirely, and Galtran should stay, not only on Jebus.
2. The Grail is an interesting feature in the game, so let it remain; those who can't use it like Reddy can just be envious.
P.S. By the way, there was an interesting moment on the CIS forum — regarding the respawn time upon meeting, why does it decrease by one day after the encounter???

Dandy

8 years ago

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Honestly, I don’t quite understand the fundamental difference between Galthran and Necro specialists. The hero class itself gets free troops, while other ways of recruiting troops (external dwellings, Griffin Conservatories, Dragon Fly Hives) are also present. So there is a certain bonus, which in itself can be seen as unfair, but that’s not what I’m talking about. This bonus is enhanced by heroes like Isra and Vidomina due to their specialty, but a rule regarding Expert Necromancy was introduced for them. And this bonus is also enhanced by Galthran, and his impact on the enhancement might be even stronger than that of Isra/Vidomina — it seems more than logical to nerf this hero. Actually, why go far — why not introduce an Expert Necromancy restriction for Galthran as well? This would increase the chance of ruining his skill tree, which is a decent fix in my humble opinion. This would also help in a situation where someone just buys him out of the tavern.
Regarding the Grail — I think that if it didn’t exist, it would be necessary to invent it (c). But seriously, either ban it in Conflux and Tower due to the imbalanced bonus, or rework its bonuses for these two towns in Heroes, if that’s possible.

Grando

8 years ago

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Graal should be completely banned until a proper, working anti-maphack is available (and only because of the lack of such a tool). If one ever appears, it should be unbanned. While Graal is banned, players should refrain from using obelisks.

Regarding Galtran, I have no opinion, as I don't know how to play with it. :smile43:

In reply to Dirty_Player

=Lizard=

8 years ago

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Dirty_Player

Are you kidding? The discussion about the Grail has been going on in the AC section for about 1.5 years, maybe even 2. We can't reach a consensus at all. All this time, there have been complaints from different players, and not only Reddy has been digging into it.

Why pour so much water on the topic "but in HotA..."? The question was asked quite specifically. Well, in SoD there is no way to physically ban heroes, but we have to live with it somehow? :smile45: And for Conflux they start and catch imba heroes - that's fine, they live normally. For Tower you can catch Kyrre, and for Castle - Gunnar, well, there they change the starting hero in 90% of cases. I personally take a philosophical approach to the question of "catching something at the start", you can catch Goshhan in the tavern, or you can get an external dwelling of minotaurs behind the Dungeon, that's just how it is, everyone catches something when the map is generated (for mirror templates, the philosophy is different, of course)

This is precisely the stumbling block that caused the discussion. After all, we're not playing anarchy.

I was talking, of course, about catching Galtran specifically with 2-3 stacks at the start when playing as Necro. This discredits both the bidding and the restrictions at the same time. Ideally, a fixed 1 stack at the start for Galtran would remove all questions entirely.

As for the second point, I don't understand the connection at all :confused:. How does anarchy relate to the essence of the bidding? (the clarity and transparency of what you are bidding for).

p.s. In Conflux, a random hero is also nonsense. And also - due to the introduction of bidding into the game. Well, let them give 5K for Luna, well, let them give 10K. But then - definitely for Luna. And not 2300 for "what if it's Luna, what if it's Grindan".

bubuch

8 years ago

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Dirty_Player

Furthermore, the presence of Galthran drives some bidding wars into madness, forcing negotiations up to insane sums, and sometimes even to 10k. Or maybe this problem is far-fetched and nothing needs to be changed?

10k is also offered for Castle, in my opinion leave the Grail on Jebus, I would ban the Grail, because I don't dig and am too lazy to dig (dug it twice in 10 years). Ban it by default, naturally, if you agree to dig, go ahead....

Added after 2 minutes
at the same time, I'd keep the obelisks, even don't know why) maybe just the obelisks as a checkbox....? Redd will dig without them anyway)

Added after 1 minute
overall, no one needs the Grail except One, maybe a few people, should ban it if so

sir Davos Seaworth

8 years ago

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I believe everything with Galtran should be left as is.
As for the Grail, limit its construction to week 3 (you can start digging as early as day 1). There used to be a ban on digging until month 2 — why was it removed? (It is still described in the patch notes for HeroesWorld 1.38.)

In reply to =Lizard=

Dirty_Player

8 years ago

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=Lizard=

I don't understand the connection in the second point at all:confused:. How does anarchy relate to the essence of trading? (the clarity and transparency of what you are trading for).

If we assume that any imbalance can be balanced through trading, then no initial balance is needed at all, and neither are any rules.