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Posts from Discussion of the Mirror Jebus rules. Auto-translated

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What changes should be made to the rules of Mirror Jebus?
60 voters
Multiple choice Public votes Closed 2018-02-13
This poll is closed.
Ban prisons in the center
20% 12 votes
Leave the prisons in the center
31.7% 19 votes
Ban Miryam
18.3% 11 votes
Leave Mirian
23.3% 14 votes
Ban Beatrice
13.3% 8 votes
Leave Beatrice
25% 15 votes
Ban Alamar
13.3% 8 votes
Leave Alamar
26.7% 16 votes
View voting results
58.3% 35 votes
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#31
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I'll express my opinion as a viewer. In my opinion, mirrored maps are inherently boring and very often unbalanced. But if you want to balance them, wouldn't it be better to make the heroes themselves mirrored as well, with a mirrored skill tree? However, this might make watching such streams even more boring.
"There's no need to execute me,sir Davos . I'll be dead before dawn."
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#32
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sir Davos Seaworth
Wouldn't it be better, instead of banning heroes, to make them mirrored as well, with a mirrored skill tree?
Year's "Original Idea 2017" award (not) :D
=Lizard=
About the possibility of half-measures — I didn't know when I raised the question. Sav told me about that later. In principle, leaving prisons with level 1 heroes is fine. Level 5 — that's already questionable.
How often do level 1 prisons generate on Jebus Cross in the treasure zone? Just for info, since I'm a noob.

Also, purely for information. How long will one game on mirrored Jebus Cross without prisons take? Wouldn't it be better to test this first in fun matches, and then vote? What if it turns out "worse than before," yet the tournament regulations have already been approved.
=Lizard=
Regarding heroes, this is no circus. You, Kostya, have obviously played more MT-Jebuses and are the final authority. Specialists in scouting aren't even up for discussion. And regarding Alamar — we just finished a game with Hellight — on 134! КЗ wasn't found on the map, nor was a scroll of Resurrection, and refreshes stubbornly didn't grant Resurrection either. Alamar could have changed the game drastically. Diemer, Solmyr, Eshlyn — nowhere near as drastic — this is a reference to Vic's words. In short, I "love" arguing with those who know everything purely in theory. It's like arguing between a conservatory professor and Jimmy Hendrix:).
I'm not arguing that I lack playtime. I don't claim the title of "daddy." In my humble opinion, the percentage of games where Alamar breaks the game (like Luna) is much lower than the times he's just average, and sometimes plain bad. And I don't see the strength of scout heroes if prisons are banned. Does anyone deliberately level them from scratch?

P.S.: "I love" arguing with someone who hasn't tested the changes themselves, but is already proposing to include them in the tournament regulations. (cheap shot!)
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#33
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Dirty_Player
“Most Original Idea of the Year 2017” award (no) :D


If this has already been discussed, could someone please send me a link in a private message? I’d like to learn about the counterarguments.
"There's no need to execute me,sir Davos . I'll be dead before dawn."
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#34
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Sir Davos Seaworth
If this has already been discussed, could someone please send me a link in a private message? I'd like to know the counterarguments.
This has been discussed since 2010. The main counterargument is the difficulty of implementation.
#35
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Dirty_Player
How often do level 1 prisons spawn on Jebus Cross in the treasure zone? This is just for my information, as a noob.

Also, purely out of curiosity. How long would a single game take on a mirrored Jebus Cross without prisons? Wouldn't it be better to first test this aspect in fun games, and then vote? Could it turn out "worse than before," while the tournament rules have already been approved.
Well, you can edit the template so that prisons spawn in the treasure zone the same way they do now, with the same guards, but the hero level would be 1 instead of 10-20-30, or whatever it is.
In the treasure zone settings, you can set prisons with an arbitrary hero level, arbitrary value, frequency, and maximum number.

Added after 9 minutes
Based on what I've seen on streams, I'm in favor of banning high-level prisons in the treasure zone, and limiting the maximum number of prisons in the treasure zone,
so that you can't go from prison to prison through both treasure zones to your opponent in a single day, eating everything along the way.

Pulling a super-mage with tons of mana out of a prison when KSh (Knight's Shield? - keep as is) is banned and cloak is forbidden is also a questionable event, especially since the skills of heroes in prisons are not mirrored.

And definitely in favor of banning scouts. As for Alamar, I don't have a clear stance.

Didn't vote, since I don't play myself.
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#36
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No matter how wonderful SoD was, the fact that practically nothing changes there is a plus) but here it feels like there are 2 camps of players: give this to one and the opposite to others) so what should be done?) as for the timer for a beginner being 16+8+2 and that's too little, that also made me smile; if anyone, then a beginner will even have some time left.
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#37
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Vikk is cunning. A vote for "view voting results" drastically reduces the percentage and makes it seem very low, although in reality it's higher. Yes, yes, I realize that at the end a calculator will be brought out and 4 / (4 + 7) * 100 will be calculated. Kappa
But points for the demagoguery +
That's what makes SoD so good — there are few arguments about balance, and there's no one to appeal to; it's not like you can write letters to Caneghem. But here the object of hatred creator is nearby; you can write something biting to him and justify that he doesn't know a damn thing about balance. And he might even answer.
Мой любимьій размер - тройка. Будь то конса, утопа или сиськи
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#38
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Iamsamstan
no matter how wonderful SoD was, the fact that practically nothing changes there is a plus) but here it feels like there are 2 camps of players: give one group this, and the other the opposite) so what's to be done?)
This is an inevitable consequence of any development ... the "change nothing" option is almost always the most popular, although not always the best.
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#39
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Wicc
This is an inevitable consequence of any development... the "do nothing" option is almost always the most popular, although not always the best.
Well, based on the voting, a range has emerged: roughly Lizard vs. Bishop, and which path should we follow next? The votes are approximately 50/50, so someone will be unhappy with the outcome in any case, and that's about half of the people.
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#40
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Iamsamstan
Based on the voting, a choice has emerged: roughly Lizard vs. Bishop, and which path should we follow? The votes are approximately 50/50, so someone will be unhappy with the outcome in any case, and that's about half of the people.
Well, the US president is usually elected with a vote ratio of something like 52-48, but people still manage to live... here, the question is one of personal adequacy.

This isn't a decision for all time; it can be reviewed later if tournament practice shows that the side that lost the vote is actually more right. After all, the number of mirror matches with Jeb isn't very high yet.
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#41
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baratorch
You could edit the template so that dungeons are generated in the treasure as well, just like now, with the same guards, but the hero level would be 1, not 10-20-30, or whatever it is now.
In the treasure settings, you can set dungeons with an arbitrary hero level, arbitrary value, frequency, and maximum quantity.
Even if this is possible, the question is what value should these objects have? It doesn't seem right to attack dungeon guards with a level 30 hero and get a level 1 hero in return. Of course, it's not very pleasant when one player has a level 30 hero with top-tier upgrades at the entrance to the treasure, while the other has a weak one. But completely removing dungeons is not the solution.
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#42
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Dirty_Player
I'm not arguing that I don't have much experience. I'm not claiming to be the "dad" here. In my humble opinion, the percentage of games where Alamar breaks the game (like Luna) is much smaller than the percentage where he's just decent, and sometimes just plain bad. And I don't see the strength of the scouts when prisons are banned. Does anyone purposefully level them up from scratch?

P.S.: I "love" arguing with someone who hasn't tested the changes themselves but is already suggesting they be included in the tournament rules. (cheap!)

And I think you are, don't pretend otherwise. And yes, scouts and Alamar are practically automatically leveled up from scratch in mirror matches as soon as they appear. Mirian, reaching level 113-114, becomes an auto-grand hero for any (absolutely any, without exception!) castle. The point is that in MT-Jebus, because of the variety of options, it's almost never a problem to find a way to level up the necessary hero in 2-3 days. I wouldn't raise this issue in X3DM1, although even there, these heroes create unpleasant confusion in games between strong players, but not as critically. P.S. Testing isn't really necessary here; if no bugs appear, the effect of the changes is clear anyway – it's just a game where "these" heroes don't come into play for anyone (and there have been quite a few of them), i.e., it's a great game.
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In reply to Wicc
#43
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Wicc

Or another example – in the current Mirrors 2 tournament, the timer is 16+8+1:30, and for some reason, it seems to me that mt-Jebus needs no more time (and perhaps even less due to his superior skills) than h3dm1 or mt-Diamond.
Mt-Jebus needs more time in the first week because he starts trying out difficult guards and building potentially long chains from the very beginning – h3dm1 usually doesn't have such a fast pace of play. And in the center, the pace is stronger in the second week than in Mirrors, only in the late game do they become comparable.
#44
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Could you create another template without dungeons, so I can see how it would play out? I can’t make that decision right now.
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#45
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Jelen117
Mt-Jebus requires more time in the first week because you are already trying out difficult defenses and building potentially long chains from the very beginning - on x3dm1, there is usually no such intense pace of play. And in the center, the pace is stronger in the second week than on the mirrored maps, only in the late game does it become comparable.
This logic also applies to the regular Jebus. However, it clearly requires less time than on the mirrored maps. Some exceptional players even manage to reach the center on the 1st week on a blitz timer :).