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Offline kolotok
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#1202
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Review by Marmot, June 26, 2017, 13:34
Map 007 chases Dr. No (Author: Frifix)

Thanks for the review! I actually read it after completing the map.
I agree with many points. I can only add:
1) It's not worth making Bond a hero at all; I immediately fired him and replaced him with Taraz (as I often do), Nela, Kirra, and Dess. So they can fight well and move quickly. For the quest guardians (2 of them, I think), I would buy Bond, unlock the guardian, and immediately fire Bond.
2) Raising undead can be retrained. For this, Nela "met" with a redeemed Tant and then retrained everyone. This greatly simplifies the game and minimizes undead losses in battles, because resurrection is BANNED by the author, and two hero specialists from the Dungeon Castle, who should know resurrection, do NOT know it on this map!
3) I was lucky with water magic. The brown opponent (northeast of the starting island) surrendered Conflux, where I bought water for everyone.
4) Regarding the choice of useful skills, you need intuition and experience from other maps. For example, when choosing Taraz and Nela, I always give the first one tactics, and the second one intelligence (because you don't know in advance how much mana might be needed). For example, when completing Wayfarer, without intelligence, it's just hardcore. Therefore, the choice of skills on author-made maps is usually: wisdom + earth 100%, almost 100% tactics + water + logistics, intelligence + pathfinding are desirable (for faster completion). The rest is optional. Considering that there is no army in the starting castle, I took diplomacy for the secondary hero who was "main" in the early stages and recruited dragons.
5) The bug with Tunnar manifested in my game in such a way that on the island of improvements, Tunnar simply stood in one place, blocking a one-way teleporter, and stood there until the end of the game, until he was killed. As did Kalh, by the way.
6) Having a well-developed logistician, I flew around some of the quests, which simplified the game.
7) The result of the playthrough was 6-3-5. It turned out to be a VERY fast start and access to the training island, but with a slight delay in the middle of the playthrough. I think it is quite possible to complete it in 4.5 - 5 months, now that I know where and with whom to go, and what army is sufficient for this.
8) Regarding killing the Doctor, without liches, he is IMHO killable: you can hire archdevils in captured castles, other meat, etc. Then, on your archdevils, use antimagic + force field and/or berserk on the opponent's archdevils (2-3 berserks, and the Doctor himself will defeat his ifrits, and then the rest). You can also take vampires and kill the opponent due to the force field. A couple of options, so to speak.
But killing Isra on the undead ground, without using magic higher than level 1, I don't even know how (there is no force field, no blindness), you can try to just brute force it, but it's very expensive. As an option, you can hire all level 1 creatures in all castles, transform them into skeletons, and attack with skeletons. I had 10,000 skeletons in parallel with the liches. If you gather all level 1 creatures, you can probably gather 20-30 thousand skeletons. If you add bone dragons to them and reduce the health of the enemy's skeletons by half, then, IMHO, you can kill Isra without liches, but it will be a tough battle.
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Offline Dandy
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#1203
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Marlo_Stanfield
Map Title: Metataxer's Revenge
Version: English, 20.0
Author: Nautilus
Downloaded: from the Heroesportal map catalog

I can hardly believe it myself, but I finally finished the Walkthrough.
My sincerest congratulations! I believe that Metataxer in map design is a real event and a serious challenge for all the pros:) In terms of the emotions that remained after completing the Walkthrough, Metataxer is unrivaled for me:)
Marlo_Stanfield

Now, about the Walkthrough itself. I'm ninety percent sure that without a general understanding of the map and without occasionally using hints from RoseKavalier, I wouldn't have managed it.
Similarly, I learned a lot of new things from RoseKavalier's description – both in terms of a general understanding of the mechanics and in terms of how to handle certain moments. I also have serious doubts that I could have completed this map without RoseKavalier's help.
Marlo_Stanfield
Well, and to the main point. And the main thing on this map is the battles. The player has to overcome simply unimaginable difficulties throughout almost the entire scenario (you can only breathe after the battle with Nosferatu at the end of the map).
Oh, yes!!!:smile04: :smile04:
and, as usual, when mentioning battles from Biobob, Rise of the Sun King is potentially even more challenging in terms of battles. It's a pity that there's no certainty that it's sufficiently tested and playable.
Marlo_Stanfield
A two-hour battle in the (!) final version against the hero Bunzenburn convinced me to use Turbo SoD. I advise you to maximize the animation speed when playing this map; otherwise, it will simply take too much time.
You're persistent!:) I realized the need for turbo-accelerated animation when dealing with the Elvish fairies with Ellesh and Kirra with crystal dragons. Each of these battles in the final version and with already turbo animation took at least half an hour.
Marlo_Stanfield

- battles that required the use of hit-and-run tactics: Bunzenburn, ScytheScroge (a real clinical case, about ten hit-and-run attacks), Bellpell, the last frifix, Nosferatu;
In my case, I decided to pay tribute by completing the map without hit-and-run tactics. This not only helps for speedrunning, but it also seemed to me that the authors did not include the use of hit-and-run tactics in their concept. In some places, it turned out to be not the most elegant solution, such as mass restarts for ScytheScroge. For Bellpell, however, a more complete solution emerged than in RoseKavalier's guide.
Marlo_Stanfield

- battles with a shock effect: Blue Sniper, frifix in the city of frifix' first, Bellpell;
the density of shock battles on this map is off the charts, yes:) there's a lot to remember:)
Marlo_Stanfield

- unexpectedly easy battles: Wendigo, Cow Heel, Kalryh (the last one would have been difficult if I had completed it before Arth. Dent and Mr. Canoli, and not after; as it was, Sepello defeated the opponent head-on);
well, it already depends on the circumstances. The battle with Wendigo becomes much more difficult if you fight him not on magical ground. As paradoxical as it sounds, if the enemy has mass healing, the battle is easier than if the healing is not massive.
Marlo_Stanfield

2) noticed that a resurrected creature in battle can move either in the same round when it was actually resurrected, or (more often) in the next. If everything is clear with the clone (a simple priority based on speed decides), then with the resurrection, it's an obscure mess.
But with resurrection, it seems to be simple. If, at the time of death, the creature still had the opportunity to move in the current round (it didn't move or was paralyzed), then after resurrection, it can move in that round.
Marlo_Stanfield

P.P.S. Finished the Walkthrough on 4.2.5. One of the best maps for the third game.
quite quickly, especially considering the lack of emphasis on speed. And once again, congratulations on completing the Walkthrough:)
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Offline Marlo_Stanfield
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#1204
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Dandy, thanks for the kind words!
Dandy
You're persistent! I realized the need for turbo-accelerated animation when I was fighting the Elvish Fairy and Kirr with Crystal Dragons. Each of these battles, in the final version and with turbo animation, took at least half an hour.
The battle with the Crystal Dragon took about an hour and a half, but it was on the first try. Not a very convincing argument)
Dandy
The density of shock battles on this map is off the charts; there's a lot to remember.
By the way, I beat the first Freefix without the Power of the Dragon Father :)
Dandy
In my case, I decided to pay tribute by completing the map without using cheats. This not only helps with speedrunning, but I also felt that the authors didn't intend for the use of cheats. In some places, it resulted in not the most elegant solution, like mass restarts for ScytheScroge. But for Bellpell, I came up with a more complete solution than in Rowzkavalier's guide.
I wouldn't mind either, but unfortunately, in some cases, I lacked the ingenuity. And I think the restrictions on some heroes are not accidental. And ScytheScroge (also known as Nila) in one go is just hell. I reviewed some of your battles afterward. The solution with Bellpell is elegant. I removed his archers and then attacked (a bastard, after killing the elves, he split the Cyclops into two stacks, no matter what I did). And the battle with Nosferatu was also impressive: forcing the Companion to cast Counterspell and destroy all the Fairies in the first round :smile20:. I initially had Brewster suicide against him, eliminating the Fairies, and then A Friend entered with double mana and a Mage Ring. I cast Prayer on the Ghost Dragons for 125 rounds and resurrected a stack in front of the Cyclops during the movement of my dragons (I killed the enemy Wizards in the first round). This was just enough rounds to defeat the Phoenixes, Azure Dragons, tons of summoned Earth Elementals, and finally the Cyclops, leaving a couple of stacks of Earth Elementals to resurrect my troops.
Dandy
Here, it seems that Resurrect is quite simple. If, at the moment of death, the creature still had the opportunity to move in the current round (it didn't move or was skipped), then after Resurrect, it can move in that round.
I understand. I suspected that it might be possible to move a resurrected creature immediately in the mid-game, but I didn't figure it out. For overwhelming with dragons, this is the best option, but I had to resurrect units at the end of the round and then speed up the resurrected stack to be sure (snakes are great for this purpose).
Dandy
quite quickly, especially considering the lack of emphasis on speed. And congratulations again on completing the map.
Almost twice as slow as your result :)

Added 3 minutes ago
This map also impressed me a lot, but perhaps not as much as it impressed you. After Season, it's hard to be surprised by anything)

Added 28 minutes ago
Dandy, here's another point that I can't quite figure out yet. In Rowzkavalier's walkthrough, Mr. Fat appears in the tavern. It seems to be related to the fact that he entered the city garrison before the battle with Sir Lock. Yesterday, I tested it in every way, but he doesn't go to the tavern. In this regard, I'm curious if it's possible to kill at least one Wizard in Carrot Pit's army without giving up Armageddon's Blade :) Although, on the other hand, this would block further access to Ground Zero.
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Offline Nasos
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#1205
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2Marlo_Stanfield
Don't you feel like trying to beat Dandy's speedrun record on Metatasker? I have the idea, but I no longer have the desire to spend time implementing it. The battles will be much tougher than Dandy's due to Orrin's lack of development.))

If you're interested, send me a private message. Dandy is also aware of this idea.
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Offline Marlo_Stanfield
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#1206
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Nasos, thank you for the suggestion, but I never replay a map twice; I lose interest.

Orrin being underleveled? I suspect this refers to an attempt to save both Dess and Orrin. Such a playthrough will end at the first free-for-all battle, if not sooner.
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Offline Nasos
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#1207
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Marlo_Stanfield
I suspect this is an attempt to save both Dessa and Orrin. This playthrough will end at the first freefix, if not sooner.

Dandy and I have come to the conclusion that the idea I proposed is quite viable. It's not just about saving Dessa, but also about making a much more radical change to the playthrough.
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Offline Marlo_Stanfield
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#1208
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Nasos, were there any attempts at implementation? It would be interesting to see the latest save file.
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Offline Nasos
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#1209
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I only tried saving after Dess. I haven't tried a new, alternative version with a radical change to the walkthrough yet. But the first month will be very similar. Save at 211. https://yadi.sk/d/xC0_gWSb3QKUxq Here, I am at least one day ahead of Dandy, with a larger army, but with an un-upgraded Orrin.

Added 2 minutes ago
Oops, sorry, I uploaded all the saves from the walkthrough up to 211 because I was sleep-deprived.
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Offline Marlo_Stanfield
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#1210
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The saves are quite impressive. Orrin caught up in experience at the garrison near Hell's Kitchen, and Dessa even gained some wisdom. And Vertigo defeating Phantom without using ranged attacks is just amazing. Plus, there's a German version of the map.
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Offline Nasos
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#1211
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Marlo_Stanfield
Dess even picked up Wisdom.
This is practically a key moment. If Biobob hadn't given Wisdom in the Pandora's Box, the viability of this type of playthrough would have been reduced to zero.

Added 12 minutes later
But the alternative option is much more interesting. It fundamentally changes the ideology of completing the map and significantly increases the speed of completion (at least by a week compared to Dandy). If, of course, it is feasible.

The main idea is that, without giving Armageddon at the end of the first week, allow the blue player to open the quest pillar before the Dungeon with a hero with damage and other stats. And after opening the brown tent, manage to free the hero from that dungeon. Then, Metataxar and wings will simply not be needed anymore.
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Offline Dandy
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#1212
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Marlo_Stanfield

Dandy, there's another point that's still bothering me. In RoseCavalier's walkthrough, Mr. Fat appears in the tavern. It seems to be related to the fact that he visited the city's garrison before the battle with Sir Lock. Yesterday, I tested it in various ways, but he doesn't go to the tavern. In this regard, I'm curious if it's possible to kill at least one wizard in the Carrot Pit's army without surrendering the Armageddon's Blade. Although, on the other hand, this would cut off further access to Ground Zero.
As I understand it, the appearance of the extra hero has been fixed in the latest version of the map.
And yes, the idea of intercepting a hero with damage dealers from the blue player's dungeon looks very promising.
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Offline wenwell
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#1213
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It seems this bug with the appearing hero was fixed in the Cavalier patch:
Fixed a bug where unhireable hero by player would still appear in tavern

Bioblob, I remember, wrote that he didn't know how to fix this problem with Mr. Fate.
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Offline Marlo_Stanfield
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#1214
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Nasos
The main idea is not to give Armageddon's Blade away at the end of the first week, but to let the blue player open the quest location before the dungeon with a hero who has Dimension Door and Town Portal. And after opening the brown tent, he will have time to free the hero from that dungeon. Then, Metataxser himself + wings will simply not be needed anymore.
Sounds audacious. The author would be surprised by such a turn of events)

Added 31 seconds ago
wenwell
It seems that this bug with the appearing hero was fixed in the Cavalier patch:
Fixed a bug where unhireable hero by player would still appear in tavern

Biiobob, I remember, wrote that he didn't know how to fix this problem with Mr. Fat.
Yes, it seems that this is the reason.

Added 10 hours 32 minutes ago
I tried to theoretically figure out a scenario with freeing the hero Rusty Fly from the dungeon. Carrot Pit gives two Wizard heroes for the quest no later than 1.3.1, but since there are 8 blue heroes on the map (Pope Dope, Roaring Beer, Rasenbert, Carrot Pit, Gene Dobbs, Kalryh, Blue Sniper, Resus), he simply won't be able to open it. That's good. And none of these heroes need to be killed in the early stages of the game (it's even a bit strange). Ideally, only Roaring Beer should be killed, visit the brown tent, and on the same day reach Ground Zero and take the dungeon. Carrot Pit will not block the way, as he likes to visit the mystic garden and watermills. But to get to Roaring Beer, you need to open the quest to break through Cow Heel before the portal to the cursed land to Inferno. And that's where the problems begin. To kill Cow Heel, you need a resilient guard. That is, you need to free Sepello - give the boots of levitation - get new boots for power - collect power (you can't take it near Uruk, as the road to it lies through Blue Sniper) - collect the legion statue - beat Rasenbert with the legion's feet. That is, killing Rasenbert and Roaring Beer must be done on the same day, as well as freeing Rusty Fly, and the distance between them is considerable. It all looks very unpromising. Although, given the presence of two logistics heroes, it might work, it's hard to say. But the idea itself is cool.

Added 9 minutes ago
Although the legion's feet are near the city of Whipwhoop. That's interesting. I'm starting to think that Nautilus may have initially laid the groundwork for such a development.

Added 10 minutes ago
It seems that only Roaring Beer needs to be killed from the blue side. But there is a problem with getting the cloak from dragon wings. You will need to go for a resilient guard to the cursed lands of Inferno first, and then take him out of there. In short, if you really put your mind to it, then theoretically it can be done. And it seems that this will be significantly faster in the end than 2.4.7. Rusty Fly with air and logistics.

Added 20 minutes ago
Rusty Fly without a town portal, that is, ideally, he should be freed by Vertigo, so as not to waste his time. Or maybe give Carrot Pit Armageddon's Blade, without killing the Wizards, so that he can unlock Ground Zero.

Added 2 minutes ago
Rusty Fly without wisdom. That's not good. Although there is a shortcut through Dimension Door underground.

Added 2 minutes ago
I got carried away :D

Added 4 minutes ago
The Guardian of the Question in point 69.3.1 contains such a funny dialogue, which suggests that this dungeon is inaccessible to us (or maybe it's just a bluff):
Rusty: Hello friends, how do you do?

A Friend: Hey Rusty! Escaped from Carrot Pit's prison?

Rusty: No, but I use this newly invented cell phone! Sensational thing! You must use it, too!

Ein Freund: Very good! News?

Rusty: I am on the end of my patience! No feed from Carrot Pit except some carrots. If you could see me, you would wonder. I am appearing red like a cristal dragon. In week one he had the chance to free me, but he din't, this duffer!

A Friend: Oh, believe me, if I would have had the chance to free you, I wouldn't have hesitated one minute. But your steelbox is unreachable for us! (much more silent to Sepello: Mr. Vertigo!!! He has done a perfect job!)

Rusty: Allthough here it needs a Rusty to get through!

Added 27 minutes ago
One consideration that could put an end to the plan. Can the blue player hide one of his heroes in the castle garrison when Carrot Pit approaches the dungeon?
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Offline Dandy
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#1215
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I don't see any problems with the Dragon Cloak –
yes, first you need to get the Watchman's artifact from two Inferno castles – but any hero with intelligence can handle that.
There are 2 days (221+222) to get the Dragon Cloak and Boots of Levitation, and then you need one more hero to pick up the Boots of Levitation. True, by day 221, few will have enough movement points left, but 222 is still available to us:)

The lack of wisdom and, as a result, teleportation for Rusty is a drawback. But this guy has 4 damage dealers per turn, and the main thing is to get the quest item from him. And he reaches the quest item in approximately 2 days.

There is also a rather ambiguous point regarding Dessa. Almost everything depends on the timing of Rusty's release. There is a basic timing that cannot be abandoned – entering the Inferno of Earth on day 221 (because we need the bonus from the Legion statue) – although this statement can be disputed. If we have a timing of entering the Inferno of Earth on day 221, then Orrin with Logistics will definitely make it to Beertent on day 222, but there will be few movement points left. It needs to be checked whether Orrin will have enough movement points without Logistics to make it in time, but without tests, this is a potential weak point. The optimal solution would be to keep Dessa and have Logistics for Orrin. After all, the intermediate timings before day 221 are not so important.

Among the advantages of Rusty's prison, there are also an extra 2,000 sapphires for our army (we don't even consider minor things like Titans), which, although not much, will help in the next battles :) And we still have the Armageddon Blade, which will help in battles before Rusty. And then, a small army from the prisons (except for the last two) will be added to the area with Operator – well, it's a small thing, but it's nice :) – because then you won't have to chase these heroes. The Operator himself, as well as the last two heroes, should be left for Dameleon.

in general, according to approximate timing estimates:
222 – Rusty
223 – quest item, release of the red prisons from the Operator's zone, collection of the remaining quest items. And, most likely, the game will be completed :) Well, maybe one or two days will be lost somewhere. But in any case, at least 2 weeks will be cut off from my record.

So, potentially, the speedrun will be much less time-consuming – not only compared to my struggles, but also compared to a normal playthrough.

Honestly, I'm puzzled as to why Nasos lost motivation to implement such a great idea.

Added 32 minutes ago

Marlo_Stanfield
One consideration that could ruin the plan. Can the blue player hide one of his heroes in the castle garrison when Carrot Pit approaches the prison?
Well, the red player, for example, is in this position throughout the game and does not place heroes in the garrison. I doubt that the blue player has more advanced intelligence :)
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Offline Marlo_Stanfield
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#1216
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Dandy
Well, for example, the red player spends the entire game in that state and doesn't place heroes in the castle garrison. I doubt the blue player has more advanced intelligence.
A reasonable point :)

In theory, a hero cannot move to the castle garrison if the option to have them stand still is selected. Because, with a certain amount of bad luck on our part, Double Bert would end up in Fronke and activate the Operator.

Added 50 seconds ago
It's a funny speedrun plan. You just need to struggle a little bit)

Added 55 minutes ago
Yes, in the finale, you'll have to leave two prisons (for the Bone Bowman, not the Damelon). And you'll need to clear out one red player beforehand, or better yet, two. But with that many troops, you can somehow solve this problem)
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