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Posts from Player rating for tournaments across all installments of Heroes.

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Which rating system should I choose? (see the text for details)
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In reply to IronAxe
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#742
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Well, based on everything written above, I've concluded the following: to avoid getting stressed, you should always try to secure your 1st place, so that, if anything goes wrong, you won't be left out due to mistakes in the competitive game.
Клан Homo homini

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...
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#743
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2IronAxe
I won't discuss who deserves what ranking in which tournament. From everything I've read, I draw two conclusions:
1. You haven't participated in Competitive events (or you constantly lost), so you don't understand the importance of a placement in a tournament.
2. You're trying to make the most of the results from the 4th stage of the World Cup, because you understand that that huge lead was due to more than just a difference in skill level. You were simply the only one exploiting bugs in the tournament, and the map was very conducive to that. Yes, I'm new to the 4th game, but even I can see that if you didn't have the Pavlovian reflex of taking the Necropolis with a hotkey (or if it didn't give you anything on that map), and you, like me, considered using the hero bug as a way to complete the Walkthrough (or if both heroes were impossible to beat, not just one), and don't say you didn't at least doubt that, then there would be no talk of 3 days. Hopefully, you'll manage to finish in 5-6 days, or even more.
Yes, you were stronger, but you also got lucky. A slightly different map, and you would never have created such a lead.
Remember, the imbalance introduced in the 4th stage tournament when calculating the ranking according to your system may also affect the results of the entire championship when summarizing the results in the Universal nomination.

Fear kills reason.

2vbn
Well, from everything written above, I've concluded the following:
to avoid getting stressed, you should always try to take your 1st place,
so that, if anything goes wrong, you won't be left out due to mistakes in the SPR.
A very correct and productive conclusion, which inspires respect for the person who made it.
In reply to Fireball
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#744
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Fireball;104250
2IronAxe
I will not discuss who deserves what rating for which tournament. From everything I've read, I draw 2 conclusions:
1. You have not participated in sporting competitions (or you constantly lost), therefore you cannot understand the role of tournament placement.
:) You are mistaken. And I explained where a rating calculation system with a PLACE parameter can be used without BUGS :)
Fireball;104250
2IronAxe
2. You are trying your best to use the results of the 4th stage of BK,
:) I am not trying anything. Amber and I started the discussion a long time ago, I believe before the start of the BK tournament. And my opinion that a rating taking placement into account is buggy was established back then. This can be verified by the posts in this thread and their dates, and AmberSoler himself can confirm this. And at that time, I didn't know how things would unfold at the BK tournament. I didn't see you in the discussions then with your amazing mathematical abilities :) And when you saw the state of the tables and total points after 5 stages, it suddenly dawned on you to improve the formula :) Now think about who is trying to use what to the maximum. Your tournament position also gives food for thought. Under Axe's system - it's harder for you to catch up to me; under Amber's system - it's easier. Moreover, under Amber's system, you have a decent lead over the 3rd contender Alex_R, while under mine, he is breathing down your neck. But under Amber's system, in the 4th, he got a bonus of only 6 points to his real points, while you got 28 :) Smell the freebie? :smile19: Removed :smile19: And by the way, where is the calculation based on my example with the coop - what, you can't calculate it :) I'm waiting for you to announce the calculation result so everyone can see the bug in the formula with PLACE :)
Fireball;104250

Because you understand that that huge lead was a result of far more than just the difference in skill level. You were simply the only bug-user at the tournament, and the map was very conducive to this. Yes, I am a newbie in 4, but even to me it is obvious that if you didn't have the Pavlov's dog reflex of taking the grave with the spacebar (or if it gave nothing on the map)
, and if you, like me for example, believed in bypassing the hero by using the offloading bug (or both heroes were impassable, not just one), and don't say you didn't doubt at least this question, then there would be no talk of 3 days at all. God grant it takes 5-6, or even more.
I had a better opinion of you :) But what does bug-using have to do with this? The rules allowed using it and that's it. Meanwhile, have you forgotten who announced the bug-feature with the ballista in 3, and thanks to whom everyone who felt like it shot elementals with a ballista in 3. I didn't use this exclusively. And before the tournament for 4, I provided links to help sites I knew and to Articles about graves and other bug-features. :smile19: Removed :smile19:
Fireball;104250

Yes, you were stronger, but you were also lucky. A slightly different map, and you would never have created such a lead.
Well, you've been lucky in plenty of places :) I'm keeping quiet. Fine, lucky in 4. But you were unlucky to snag a 28-point bonus there. I'm ahead of you in any system, so what. Everything is still ahead. And there will be more 4. Who knows who else will be lucky and who won't :)
Fireball;104250

Fear kills the mind.
And so I'm watching you lose your mind :p

PS. And one more thing. Why are you picking on 4 and on me :) Did you not see my post where I suggested 2 options for totaling the Universal results?
Option 1 - under the VDV system (I wrote that I'm not against it)
Option 2 - I suggested that the Universal be totaled over 6 stages out of 12. Players choose the best 6 results from their own. In this version, more people participating in the tournament would have the chance to become a Universal, at least someone like vbn. Otherwise, he's out, as he didn't participate in all stages.

:smile19: Removed :smile19:

Added after 1 hour 13 minutes
[/U]
vbn;104247
Well, from everything written above, I've concluded this:
to avoid stressing out, one must always try to take 1st place,
so that in case of anything, you're not left out due to bugs in the SPR.
Trying is one thing and that's clear :) The leader always gets a hundred under any system. But whether one manages to become the leader or not is another thing. And when you suddenly get unlucky and fail? That's where my question to you is. In which system would you prefer your rating to be calculated in that case - the buggy one that might give you a freebie bonus where the bonus actually exceeds your points for the real result, or would you prefer to get less, but what you honestly earned? :)

Added after 16 minutes
Question to the BK TOURNAMENT ORGANIZERS. Do you intend to total the results for the Universal nomination? If so, under which system or method? Please answer at least approximately. Because players need to know this to develop their rating strategy for the stages!
In reply to IronAxe
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#745
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IronAxe;104245
I'm going in circles because of you. But today is the last lap and then a break - I need to see if anyone even wants this besides us.
Of course they do .... it's just that there isn't always a desire to read "clashes and arguing" ... and many of the discussed issues would be better seen in tables, rather than phrases!
P.S. The Creator promised to restore the morale system soon, and many of the posts (Fireball IronAxe AmberSoler) will participate in the contest for "who can get the most morale penalties";)

Added after 2 hours 26 minutes
I agree with Iron regarding the flaws in current systems, and regarding the use of an oscillator for calculating ratings of online Tournaments ....
and the example with the 4th stage is very timely ....
but I still hope for a new formula ... or some kind of improvement to the existing system ....
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#746
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I don't remember seeing you in the discussions back then, with your amazing mathematical abilities.
Of course, at that time, I didn't even know what a Tournament was, so I didn't bother discussing the ranking.
And when you saw the state of the tables and the total scores after 5 rounds, you suddenly had the idea to improve the formula. Now think about who is trying to use what to the maximum.
I already wrote that I started discussing the ranking only because none of them were accepted. If the organizers now announce that a certain system has been chosen, I will never challenge it.

And in the meantime, you haven't forgotten who announced the bug with the ballista in the 3rd game, and thanks to whom everyone started shooting elementals with the ballista in the 3rd game. I didn't use it alone.
And what's that got to do with it? I don't know about the others, but I realized that I would be shooting elementals with the ballista in the first hour of scouting, considering it normal. And then you came up with your discussion, from which I understood that it might be a bug. And I was waiting for them to decide about it.

:smile19: Deleted :smile19:
Yes, you were lucky in some places. I'm not saying anything. You were lucky in the 4th game. But you didn't get a bonus of 28 points there.
The only Tournament where I can say that I was lucky is the 4th (and even then, the question is still not resolved, I would prefer a slightly different map). Only my "luck" really irritates you (how many posts have you already written complaining that you can't give so many points to a newbie?), but you somehow forget about your own.
And also. Why are you picking on the 4th game and on me?
It's me who's picking on you???

:smile19: Deleted :smile19:
And how many times do I have to repeat that I agree with ANY OFFICIALLY ACCEPTED system.

And I officially declare (in a sober mind and memory) that, from my point of view (although it is incorrect), the most interesting system would be the one chosen by IronAxe.

You can now use this quote to your advantage.

2AlexR
Of course, it's necessary... it's just that sometimes there is no desire to read "arguments and squabbles"... and many of the issues being discussed would be better seen in tables, not in phrases!
If there is an official competition of systems, then such tables will definitely appear. Although now I am leaning towards the administration deciding everything on its own. Even if they flip a coin.
P.S. The creator promised to restore the morale system soon, and many of the posts (Fireball, IronAxe, AmberSoler) will participate in the "who can get the biggest morale penalty" competition.
Probably, you are right. But personally, I have never lowered morale and I will not do it.
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#747
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Iron, as an organizer of online tournaments, I'd like to say that regarding "if you want to have a ranking system," we already have one. There's a ranking table for online 3-player games, which I created on this resource. And if you're so blind that you didn't see it, and don't even understand how it could have happened without your 25-page contribution, then I apologize. If you're fixated on offline play, that's not my fault. And comments like, "Hey, online organizers, I'm so brilliant, I've come up with something amazing and I'm giving you a ranking system" are completely irrelevant. Of course, :smile19: Deleted :smile19: you and Amber can have another unproductive discussion that leads nowhere, spanning another 50 pages, and revisit the same points 100 times. But I won't participate in that, and you can just present me with the final decision when you've agreed on something: that everything I came up with is not good, but we, the super-minds, have come up with something better, and now everything needs to be calculated differently. In that case, I'll naturally have to comply and calculate it the way you want.
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#748
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What an ORGANIZER! I take off my hat (tiara?) and, if I may, kiss your hand. It's a pity that you don't organize offline events.
In reply to Fireball
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#749
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Fireball;104293
I have already written that I started discussing the rating only for the reason that none were accepted. If the organizers write back now that a certain system has been chosen, I will never contest it.
Well, that's great. But why accuse me of discussing rating systems and pointing out that my system has fewer flaws because, according to mine, my point lead over YOU is greater? While according to Ambera's system, your lead over Alex_R is greater :) and at the same time, the point gap between us is smaller :) That's why it's beneficial for you to ignore the flaws in Ambera's system, but at the same time accuse my system of not calculating the rating very accurately because the formula uses few parameters :)
Fireball;104293

And what is this for? I don't know about the others, but I realized I would be blasting Elementals with a ballista during the first hour of scouting, considering it normal. And then you popped up with your discussion, from which I understood that this might be a bug. And I was waiting for a decision on this matter.
To the point that you say I'm a great bug-user and that's why I got so lucky in the 4s stage. To this, I answer that I provided links to the bug-features before the start of the 4s tournament. Anyone could have familiarized themselves. And in the 3s, you realized you would be blasting with a ballista with infinite ammo but kept quiet and didn't even wonder if it was a bug or a feature. Like, if I hadn't popped up, you would have secretly used the bug-feature, which, by the way, not everyone knew about.
Fireball;104293

The only tournament where it can be said that I was lucky is the 4s (and even then the question isn't resolved, I would have preferred a slightly different map). Only my "luck" irritates you greatly (how many posts have you spent crying that a noob shouldn't be given so many points?), while you've somehow forgotten about your own.
I don't give a damn about your luck and I'm not crying; I'm using this as an example to show the flaws of Ambera's system on a real rating table based on his system. And you just keep attacking me saying I was lucky. What am I to blame for? That I was lucky enough to raise the bar a bit higher in that tournament? Well, you could have raised the bar in other versions where I play worse. I could say the same thing to the leaders of other versions—that they were lucky. And you were also lucky that there were more strong players in other tournaments (for 2s, 3s, 5s). Had they not been there, I would have taken second place there :), and according to Ambera's system, I would also have gotten a freebie for the PLACE :)
Fireball;104293

Am I the one nitpicking???
And who else—me?

:smile19: Removed :smile19:
Fireball;104293

And how many times do I have to repeat that I agree to ANY OFFICIALLY ACCEPTED system. And I absolutely officially declare (in my right mind and memory) that, from my point of view, the most interesting (although incorrect) choice would be IronAxe's system. You can now use this quote in your own interests.
You'd better declare that the most interesting (FLAWED), from your point of view, and the most correct choice would be Amber's system. Or are you still composing your own formula? I'll say that if you remove PLACE from the parameters, you can count on success :)
Fireball;104293

If there is an official competition of systems, then such tables will certainly appear.
They already exist if you haven't noticed. Across five stages for three systems. And Alex_R has probably already checked the 4s results for all three systems :)

:smile19: Removed :smile19:
Fireball;104293

Perhaps you are right. But personally, I have never lowered morale and will not do so.
Neither will I :) I don't play the "lowering morale" game, but if I like something, I might raise it :)

Added after 2 minutes
Alex_R;104278

but still, I hope for a new formula ... or some improvement to the existing system ....
What's the point in hoping. The question now is this—there are three systems, and one must be chosen from them. Because mathematicians might take five years to compose an ideal formula. But we need to calculate the rating right now :)
In reply to Аделаида
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#751
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Adelaida;104295
Iron, as an organizer of online tournaments, I'll say this about "if you want to have a ranking system," we already have one; there's a ranking table for the 3-player online games, which I created on this resource.
Okay, please provide links to the description of your system and the online player ranking table. I don't read online game threads, but I've talked to several online players, and they didn't mention that you have a ranking system. That's why I thought you didn't have one. I'm just interested in seeing the ranking of my online friends.
Adelaida;104295

And if you're so blind that you didn't see this, and you don't even understand how it could have happened without your 25-page participation, then I'm sorry... if you're stuck on offline games, it's not my fault. And comments like, "Hey, online organizers, I'm so brilliant, I've come up with something amazing and I'm giving you a ranking system" are completely irrelevant.
:) You probably only read one black line from my post; otherwise, you would have understood that I was suggesting NOT my system, but the AmberSolera system, and I specified that everything related to my system should be removed from the formula.
Adelaida;104295

Of course, :smile19: Deleted :smile19: you and Amber can have another unproductive discussion that leads nowhere, spanning another 50 pages, and return to the same point 100 times, but I won't participate in that, and you can just present me with the fact when you've agreed on something: that everything you came up with is not good, but we, the super-minds, have come up with something, and now everything needs to be calculated in that way. In that case, I will naturally have to comply and calculate it the way you want.
Why are you getting so upset? :) I just didn't know that you already have a ranking system. Let me see the description of your system, and I'll tell you what I think of it. I've already given my opinion on Amber's formula for ranking online players. It's suitable and realistic. But that doesn't mean that you can't calculate the ranking for online games in a different way.
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#752
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And on the third attempt, you realized you were going to blast away with a ballista that had infinite ammunition, but you kept quiet and didn't even consider whether it was a bug or a feature. Like, if I hadn't come out, you would have quietly taken advantage of this bug-feature, which, by the way, not everyone knew about.
I was playing on the Platinum edition, where all the bugs have long been fixed. Therefore, the ballista is not a bug; that's how I reasoned.
And who, am I?
It's you, but I suggest we end this.

:smile19: Deleted :smile19:
What's up, are you stuck trying to come up with a super-formula?
You'd better say that, from your point of view, the most interesting (and flawed) and the most correct thing would be to choose the Amber system. Or are you still making up your own formula? I'll tell you that if you remove LOCATION from the parameters, you can expect success.
Conceptually, the system could be ready very quickly, but under these conditions, it is unlikely to be very useful. I will wait. And of course,
location will be taken into account in it.
Let the administration have its say.
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#753
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The administration has stepped in to have their say:
1. Comrades, please do not make it personal. I am not deleting anything for now, but next time I will start cracking down. And don't be offended later if I delete something important.
2. The deeper we go into the woods, the thicker the partisans get. From everything said above, I have understood only the following: some kind of "curvature" needs to be introduced into the "linear" component and make it non-linear in such a way.
3. Offline and online ratings must be independent. Adelaide has developed her own system that is perfectly suited for online play. There is no need to force offline formulas upon her.
4. After all, a bonus that takes into account the strength of the Tournaments is necessary. And so far, no one has put forward any arguments against the revised version of it. I would like to hear some constructive criticism.
That is all for now. Once again, I warn you — no rudeness.
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In reply to IronAxe
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#754
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IronAxe;104337
Please provide links to the description of your system and to the online player ranking table. I don't read online forum threads, but I corresponded with several online players, and they didn't mention that you also have a rating system. That's why I thought there wasn't one. I'm just interested in seeing the rankings of my online friends.

/topic/2455/
Take a look at this and show it to your online friends who weren't aware of it, although I'm curious about who these people are. My players all know where things come from and how they are calculated; maybe your friends simply don't have a rating because they haven't played online on this resource:D
As for the question about whose formula you were suggesting, it's easy to get confused... honestly, I initially tried to understand what was being discussed here, and I even succeeded, but later I realized that it is probably more efficient to spend time spent on the forum not reading your 25-page arguments.
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#755
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IronAxe;104334

What's the point of hoping? The question now is: there are three systems, and we need to choose one. Because mathematicians might spend five years coming up with the perfect formula. But we need to calculate the rating now :)
Well, for me, there is a point... and that's probably more important ;)
Since we haven't decided on a choice before the start of the tournament, it's okay if I choose right before the final stage... :)
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#756
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AlexeyPank;104367
The administration has arrived and is stating its firm opinion:
2. The further you go into the forest, the thicker the partisans become. From everything said above, I only understood the following: it is necessary to introduce some "curvature" into the "linear" component and make it non-linear.
You have already tried to do this by introducing a bonus that takes into account the strength of the Tournament using the results of previous games. However, since your formula still contains the part that accounts for the PLACE in the Tournament, the results are not much different from the Amber system's results. I showed on real examples what the flaws of this part of the formula are. Although, in itself, your bonus does not seem to give such an increase to the actual result as Amber (in his case, the bonus sometimes even exceeds the points for the player's actual result).
Well, okay, let those who want develop it and present the final formula – we will discuss it :) But if it is implemented by the end of the Canighem Tournament and the results are calculated based on it, then this is not entirely correct because players chose their rating strategy based on the three systems already presented, although I am not against it; otherwise, they will say again that I am worried about my own result.
AlexeyPank;104367

3. Offline and online ratings should be independent. Adelaide has developed her own system that is perfectly suited for online play. You shouldn't impose offline formulas on her.
I didn't impose anything. I just didn't know that there was already some kind of ranking here for online play, so I suggested the Amber system.
AlexeyPank;104367

4. A bonus that takes into account the strength of the Tournament is still necessary. And no one has yet put forward arguments against its improved version. We would like to hear constructive criticism.
I showed the flaws that the parameter "occupied place" introduces using REAL examples; what other constructive criticism do you need? As for the revised formula, I haven't seen a single real table yet. Well, recalculate all the results of the Canighem stages according to it, then we’ll see what it produces. Although, I don't understand where the flaw resulting from the occupied place can disappear to.

Added 6 minutes ago
Alex_R;104390
Well, for me, it makes sense... and that's probably more important ;)
since they didn't decide on the choice before the start of the tournament, nothing terrible will happen if I choose before the last stage....:)
This only indicates that you will choose the system in which your personal result looks better. The three options already used were proposed BEFORE the start of the Canighem Tournament. And nobody knew how things would turn out, including the developers of these systems :)

Added 6 minutes ago
Adelaide;104389
IronAxe;104337Please provide links to the description of your system and to the table of online player rankings.
/topic/2455/[/url]
Here, take a look and show it to your online friends who didn't know about it. I looked at the table, thank you. But what about the request for a link to the description of your system – how it works and how it calculates? Will you provide it?
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#757
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Since you’ve looked at the table, please take the time to find the topic with the tournament rules; everything is clearly explained there, in the first post. And please post something a little more polite because I managed to fit all of this into 1 POST on 1 PAGE, and I’m not Google... I gave you one link, and that should be enough, otherwise you’ll get spoiled!

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