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Offline Aiwe
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#3934
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Wicc
Specifically for Spider, the following is planned:
- give ordinary zones standard contents so that Dragon Utopia units generate there
- strengthen passages where rests occur upon encounter up to 9K
- increase the size of treasure rooms

In my opinion, relics on the ground are not necessary for Spider.


Sweet. Sounds like exactly what's needed, although in my humble opinion, strengthening the passages isn't necessary, so that there remains a possibility for a quick encounter.

Regarding the claim that only those who love farming for 2 months are left on HL—I disagree. For example, I don't like farming, but I love HL.
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Offline Wicc
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#3935
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2 Medium Which request are you referring to? There are many in this thread. My position is this: each template has its own unique features, its "identity." If they don't suit you, it's better to create a new template. And only fix minor implementation details that are not critical to the template's idea. For Spider, these features are the presence of short paths to the opponent and the ability to quickly set up the Grand Master. The number of pits is not such a feature, but it is important in situations where early contact has not occurred and it is necessary to level the playing field so that players can gain resources. Restarting upon meeting is a priori bad, as it prolongs already slow games, so it should be fought against with all means. On the 2nd week, 12k or 20k won't stop a player, unless a God of Order does. And 9k for the 1st week is a serious defense, especially since you have to break through 2 of them.
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Offline Medium_HP
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#3936
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Wicc
2 Medium
Which request are you referring to? There are many in this thread.

The request is obviously for a map layout similar to the 6LM (which is the most popular one right now), but with roads distributed more evenly.
My position is that each layout has its own unique features, its "identity." If they don't suit you, it's better to create a new layout.
So, let Spider keep its unique features, including the possibility of early encounters and "intense close-quarters combat" (as they say). We remove those 2 connections I mentioned, change the content, and we get a completely new layout, which we can even call "NotSpider" so that people don't get confused and don't look for the features that are characteristic of Spider. This "NotSpider" would, in my opinion, fully satisfy the aforementioned request.
Firstly, it's not difficult to do, and secondly, it doesn't prevent us from simultaneously coming up with a new scheme.
Награда: Лучшему игроку сезона Осень 2009 за замок Конфлюкс
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Offline Wicc
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#3937
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Yes, that's possible. You don't necessarily have to tie it to Spider. The technical specifications for such a template would look something like this:

- the layout should be circular or close to it
- the distance between opponents should be 6 moves
- add some impassable terrain (optional)

I don't have a template editor handy, but I managed to create this in Paint in 5 minutes:



This is the template framework; you need to add 2 more computers and some trebuchets to taste.
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Offline Medium_HP
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#3938
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Wicc
Yes, that's possible. You don't necessarily have to tie it to Spider; the design specifications for such a template would look something like this:

- the layout is circular or close to it
- the distance between opponents is 6 moves
- add some impassable terrain (optional)

I don't have a template editor handy, but I managed to create this in Paint in 5 minutes:



This is the template framework; you need to add 2 more computers and some impassable terrain to taste.
Well, you still need to come up with it, and then test it. I immediately have doubts about having 2 exits from the starting area (there were three on "Nespider") - one leading to impassable terrain, the other to a one-way path, and that's it.
Награда: Лучшему игроку сезона Осень 2009 за замок Конфлюкс
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Offline Sanin
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#3939
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Medium_HP
Well, you still need to come up with it and then test it. I immediately have doubts about having two exits from the spawn point (there would be three on "Nespider") - one leading to rough terrain, the other to a one-way path, and that's it.
One-way paths, by the way, are very rarely generated on a spider map.
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Offline Wicc
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#3940
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Medium_HP
Well, it still needs to be conceived and then tested. I immediately have doubts about having two exits from the spawn point (there would be three on "Nespider") - one leading to an off-road area, the other to a one-way path, and that's it.
This is just a framework. You can add connections, including those originating from the spawn point. The main thing is that the number of transitions to the opponent's base does not decrease.

Conceiving and testing - yes, that's necessary. I'm unlikely to do it myself, as it ruins my karma. At most, I can take a look and offer some advice. So, if anyone wants to try their hand at template creation, they are welcome.
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Offline Wicc
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#3941
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As an alternative, you could adapt this anarchic scheme for the HotA (Heroes of Might and Magic III: The Restoration of Erathia) map:



The computer-controlled factions would be placed in zones 9-10-11-12-13-14, and since there are only 17 zones in total, you can reach the HotA standard (22-28) by adding dead-end treasure locations.

However, you shouldn't simply copy the contents of the zones and the strength of the guards at the connections; they were designed for the original Heroes of Might and Magic III game without computer-controlled factions.

P.S. In general, the Anarchy schemes contain many good ideas that can be applied to other templates, so if you're short on ideas, you can explore these sketches.
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Offline Iamsamstan
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#3942
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a question for Viku, slightly off-topic:
Regarding road balance, it can only be achieved with a tree-like structure, similar to MiniNosta, when using the Sodov engine. Any cycle immediately creates imbalances in the roads.
Is it possible to create such tree-like roads in 2sm4d(3)?
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Offline Wicc
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#3943
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Iamsamstan
a question for Viku, slightly off-topic: is it possible to create tree-like roads like these in 2sm4d(3)?
Only if you remove some of the unnecessary passages to the treasure locations, so that each treasure location is connected to only one zone. But then it will just become MiniNosta.
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Offline Medium_HP
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#3944
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Wicc

Coming up with ideas and testing – yes, that’s necessary. I probably won’t be doing that, though, because it ruins my karma.

That’s why I suggest not thinking and not testing, but doing it as described in the first post :D. It should take about half an hour, as I understand it, and then you can continue to come up with new ideas.
Награда: Лучшему игроку сезона Осень 2009 за замок Конфлюкс
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Offline zoog
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#3945
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Wicc
For these purposes, LM10 is the best among all HLUs.
The most enduring is nostalgia; you might not encounter anyone until level 137.
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Offline Wicc
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#3946
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Medium_HP
That’s exactly what I suggest: don’t think and don’t test, just do as written in the first post :D. It should take about half an hour, and then you can continue to come up with new things.
First, the generator in Heroes is a thing in itself; when the structure of the template is changed, side effects often occur, which are not even noticeable during a visual inspection of the generations, let alone the scheme.

For example, when switching from 8mm6 to 8mm6a, complaints arose that the contact occurred earlier. Although in both cases, there are 4 transitions to the opponent.

Therefore, removing 2 connections will not result in a Spider without 2 connections, but a new template, which will require testing in a similar volume.

Secondly, a template that is positioned as an improved or modified Spider will compete with the old Spider for a line in the map pools of Tournaments. With arguments, debates, comparisons of "the grass was greener before," and demands to return it to how it was.

A fundamentally new template does not have such a legacy.
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Offline Wicc
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#3947
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I felt a bit down, so I created a template.

Since the balance of roads is a sensitive issue, I made it in four versions:

v1.0 - default version
v1.1 - without villages in the central paths; this should reduce the chance of the AI "leaking" to the opponent, but it makes two out of three paths without roads and increases the length of the "non-stop" run to the opponent.
v1.2 - with multi-paths to the nearest villages; this increases the chance that a road will lead there, but also increases the risk of getting a one-way path.
v1.3 - combines both.

You can view the scheme in TEditor; I don't feel like drawing it. If anyone doesn't mind, please draw it.

In general, we need to generate all four versions and determine the optimal one. It's best to test it with numbers right away - statistics from 20-30 generations for each template are usually informative enough.

The content of the zones is typical everywhere. The guards in the central paths can be increased (if needed).
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Offline Medium_HP
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#3948
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I tested versions 1.0 and 1.2; the other two versions (without central towns) didn't really interest me. Here are the results: - The underground usually (in about 3 out of 4 cases) generates with half or less of its resources filled. - Roads more or less evenly distribute resources between red and blue, but rarely give both 3 roads; more often, it's 1-2. The size of the starting zones and adjacent towns is usually small, so the decision to have 6k guards for the computers seems questionable; I think 3k would be better, otherwise, there will be difficulties with development. - Version 1.0 usually has few one-way roads; out of 10 generations, 8 had only one one-way road, one had 3, and another had many, at least 6. In version 1.2, there are noticeably more one-way roads (I generated it about 6 times, and there were never less than 3 one-way roads), but the number of roads from the starting spawn doesn't increase significantly. - It would be better to tie the landscape of the towns to their type, so that there are fewer sandy areas, as you will have to travel a lot on unpaved roads. - In terms of resource richness, it's about the same as 6LM, but the size of the treasures varies greatly, from huge ones that cover a third of the map to miniature ones with only a couple of objects.
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Награда: Лучшему игроку сезона Осень 2009 за замок Конфлюкс
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