LBE – minimal balance changes for Heroes V 3.1. — Mods: Tribes of the East

Dyrman

7/3/2017 8:15 AM UTC

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Nargott

Vampirism is already weak – vampires are resurrected much weaker than in Heroes 2-4. How much weaker can it be made?

What do Heroes 2-4 have to do with it? We are discussing Heroes 5.
Strategies are based on vampires, both for capturing Utopia and for early rushes to high-level locations. Isn't 50% a significant amount?

Another option is to shift their damage/attack to another parameter so that the drain effect doesn't have such a strong impact.

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AstralLein

7/3/2017 8:23 AM UTC

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50%? Vampires are level 4 creatures that are easily defeated by almost any other creature of the same level. Except for dwarves. Against druids of the same number, they won't last long. Even the lack of surrender doesn't help them.

Added 1 minute ago
But you can weaken them. Then they will be sent to the third level.

Карты для героев 5

"Плата за любовь"
"Путь некроманта"
"Темные грани"
"Рок Гримхейма"

In reply to Dyrman

Nargott

7/3/2017 8:44 AM UTC

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Dyrman

What do 2-4 heroes have to do with this? 5 are being considered.
Based on vampires alone, strategies can be set for both capturing the Dragon Utopia and early breakthroughs of high levels. Is 50% really not enough?

There is also an option to shift their damage\attack into another parameter so that the drain doesn't play out as strongly.

It's bad to ruin a unit just for the sake of a breakthrough. Then you might as well start cutting shooters, casters, and ghosts.
To stop vampires in the corner + Dragon Utopia BDP from being viable, it is enough to remove the clunky 20% HP penalty on raising. Although you already removed the BDP for the Necromancer anyway, so what's the problem?
In the endgame, vampires (if looking at the upgrade) are mediocre fighters regardless.

There is also an option to shift their damage\attack into another parameter so that the drain doesn't play out as strongly.

Make even more tanks, besides zombies and ghosts?

Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
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Автор Асимметричных шахмат

In reply to Nargott

Dyrman

7/3/2017 9:01 AM UTC

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Nargott

It's not a good idea to sacrifice a unit just to break through the enemy lines. Instead, start by eliminating the archers, mages, and ghosts.

Mages and archers won't last long as single units. And you don't need vampires to help.

You could make it so that they are stronger in the final stages but weaker in breaking through the enemy lines.

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Nargott

7/3/2017 9:09 AM UTC

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Try reducing the percentage of necromancy; then it will be more difficult to gather only vampires from it, resulting in fewer vampires in your army (but more of other units).
Currently, as far as I remember, you can deplete the dark energy reserve for the entire week in just one battle; under such conditions, it is easy to assemble any overpowered army, not only with vampires but also with archers.

Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
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Автор Асимметричных шахмат

In reply to Nargott

Dyrman

7/3/2017 9:12 AM UTC

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Nargott

Try reducing the Necromancy percentage; then it will be harder to only gather vampires from it, resulting in fewer vampires in your army (but more of other troops).

That's a very indirect approach.
How many vampires, without Battle Discipline, can break through an average Utopia?

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In reply to Dyrman

Nargott

7/3/2017 9:22 AM UTC

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Dyrman

How many Vampires without Battle Damage Prevention (BDP) can take down an average Utopia?

You should know better, as you're planning to cut Vampires based on something. I haven't played the original in a long time.
Attach a specific replay showing specific timings where, in your opinion, solo Vampires are overpowered, and then we can work with that.
Are we talking about the grade? Alt was definitely overpowered; it just wasn't being fixed.

Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
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Автор Асимметричных шахмат

atlant108

7/4/2017 7:42 AM UTC

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Good mod, but I don't plan on installing it. The reason:

- The base hit points of the ballista have been reduced by half;
- The base hit points of the tent have been reduced by half;

I disagree with these changes. I believe that the stats of combat units should be increased.

In reply to atlant108

Dyrman

7/4/2017 7:57 AM UTC

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atlant108

I think the stats of the combat units need to be increased.

o_O :smile17:
How long have you been playing or have you played online games? And if you play against the AI, at least don't play on the lowest difficulty.

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In reply to Nargott

Dyrman

7/4/2017 8:04 AM UTC

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Nargott

You should know better, you're going to cut vampires based on something. I haven't played the original in a long time.
Attach a specific replay at specific times where, in your opinion, solo vampires are overpowered, and then we can work with that.
Are we talking about the grade? The Alt could be overpowered, it wasn't fixed for you.

I think that in the early game, vampire regeneration is an obvious thing, as is their weakness in the late game. We're not really talking about vampires, but about their draining ability, which the Princes also have. They are quite expensive in the castle, but they can be obtained relatively easily through necromancy. In general, if we reduce the draining to 30% and increase the growth in the castle, I think that would be the best.
It also wouldn't hurt to "hide" from the Princes' stunning ability. But we need to find the most universal way to change something so as not to end up with a minor adjustment. In general, as far as I'm concerned, stunning doesn't stack very well with draining, it's a strange combination...

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In reply to AstralLein

Dyrman

7/4/2017 8:14 AM UTC

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AstralLein

50%? Vampires are level 4 creatures that are easily defeated by almost any other creature of the same level. Except for Gnomes. They won't last long against Druids of the same size. Even the lack of surrender doesn't help them.

In my opinion, it is necessary, first of all, to value a unit based on its usefulness in the army, and not in comparison with others, as Nargott did. And only then proceed from other parameters. In general, you can increase their cost in dark energy, of course - as the most optimal option, but...

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AstralLein

7/4/2017 8:19 AM UTC

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Wouldn't it be easier to remove the useless "Drain Life" ability and give them a minor ability in return? Otherwise, with your proposed 30% reduction, there will be no point in building Vampires at all. Adjust the "Etherealness" ability. I think it's too strong as it is. And Vampires are already not the best creatures at their level. Name two reasons why they should be weakened. And how many times have you played as them? Sorry if I'm being blunt, but I don't see the logic.

Карты для героев 5

"Плата за любовь"
"Путь некроманта"
"Темные грани"
"Рок Гримхейма"

In reply to Dyrman

atlant108

7/4/2017 8:19 AM UTC

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Dyrman

o_O :smile17:
How long have you been playing or have you played online games? Don't play against the AI.

Dyrman, for quite a while (5 years), but that's not the point. Machines are certainly useful, but a ballista, tent, and cart in a single copy!!! They are very vulnerable to the enemy. You can spend a long time upgrading the ballista, for example, but a unit of archers can destroy it at the beginning of the battle, and thus, nullify all the advantages. The same applies to the tent and the ammunition cart! In the early stages of the game, the ballista and tent are extremely important, but after a month of gameplay, their usefulness decreases significantly. As for the catapult, it is easily destroyed by archers, sometimes in one go, which I often use when playing against an opponent. Without a catapult, it is very difficult to play, as only ranged units + the Hero's magic remain.

In reply to AstralLein

Dyrman

7/4/2017 8:46 AM UTC

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AstralLein

Wouldn't it be easier to remove the useless draining ability and give them a minor ability in return? Otherwise, your 30% drain will become completely pointless, and there will be no reason to build vampires. Adjust the incorporeality ability. I think it's too strong. And vampires are already not the best creatures at their level. Name two reasons why you want to weaken them. And how many times have you played as them? Sorry if I'm being blunt, but I don't see the logic.

I've played a lot of HotA, and with Vampires and the Dragon Utopia build, you can take it without losses in 1-2 weeks. Without the Dragon Utopia build, it's later, of course. The critical number of vampires (draining and not being killed), when they can easily destroy armies of strong neutrals in a stack, is easily achieved with dark energy. You can't remove the ability because then it wouldn't be a vampire anymore.
There's already a solution for dark energy. But maybe something better could be done.

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In reply to atlant108

Dyrman

7/4/2017 8:56 AM UTC

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atlant108

In the early stages of the game, the ballista and tent are undoubtedly extremely important, but after a month of gameplay, their usefulness decreases significantly.

Of course, it decreases. Because initially, it's disproportionately overpowered and greatly helps in development.
Therefore, by investing in machines early in the game on a map without a mentor, to have an easy start, the player consciously takes a risk if the game progresses into the late game. This is normal.
Even if, somehow, it becomes possible to make the strength of the machines more proportional to the hero's level/the passage of time, significantly weakening them at the beginning, it will be extremely boring.