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The mod will feature a modified skill tree. It’s being created for fun, but everyone can offer criticism or suggestions. The mod will be implemented after a preliminary, complete skill tree scheme is finalized. Main points: - No additional connections between skills from different schools; - Strengthening of weak skills; - Removal of unnecessary skills; - Several newly created skills; - Logical and aesthetic connection of skills with their respective schools.
There is a mod called Role-Playing Edition, which features 24 hero classes (3 per faction). Perhaps it would be worthwhile to borrow and further develop the ideas from that mod.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition. Сайт проекта - пока неактивен Автор Асимметричных шахмат
There is a mod called Role-Playing Edition, which features 24 hero classes (3 per faction). Perhaps it would be worth borrowing and developing ideas from there.
Isn't it also accessed through an executable file? But I've also used non-native skills instead of racial skills in my old maps. What specific ideas are you referring to? How could it relate to this mod?
Well, new classes are created, and the skill progression schemes are changed for each one, etc.
Classes are an unnecessary addition (you can only make 2 per faction if there's a large number of heroes and unique skills, but no more). In Heroes 5, a "class" is created by skills and abilities and is determined by the faction (because there are so many skill sets among all the factions, it's the same thing). Besides, giving all factions a "dampening" effect is an "insult" to the Orcs and aesthetically incorrect.
Besides, giving all races a muted appearance is a "disgrace" to the Orcs and aesthetically incorrect.
I agree with this statement.
However, the discussion was not about total copying, but about using some of the existing developments and technical details. In my opinion, the option to choose a hero class has great potential. In this regard, Heroes 3 is better than Heroes 5 (there are 2 classes per race, while here there is only one, without a choice).
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition. Сайт проекта - пока неактивен Автор Асимметричных шахмат
However, we're not talking about a complete copy, but rather using some of the existing developments and technical details. In my opinion, the option to choose a hero class has great potential. In this regard, Heroes 3 is better than Heroes 5 (there are 2 classes per race, while here there is only one, without a choice).
All heroes have the ability to upgrade almost all skills in the skill tree (there are very few truly racial skills). This implies that there is no need to use classes, but if you have a large number of heroes (for example, as in the NHF mod), then dividing them into 2 classes is good (which, in principle, I wrote about above). Let's assume that we also want a mage or a warrior (classes). Some magic is purely general (for mages and warriors) - light, darkness, while some is only for mages (summoning and chaos). Sorcery is purely for mages, and the rest of the non-magical skills are suitable for everyone. Having only 3 pure magic skills results in an incorrect rotation for a warrior and a mage. Therefore, tying it to stats is pointless (like changing them in different classes). The skill tree was not designed for these classes. And they even added a mentor... 1) Let's assume that academics will have a mage and an alchemist. The first actively uses all schools of magic, while the second, for example, supports units by upgrading attack and ranged attack (mages have 3 ranged attack stacks!), and focuses on synergy instead of sorcery. Where is the alternative? The alternative that existed before classes will simply be available for each class. 2) Humans. There is not much magic available for them. Should we not give them a lot of spell power and chaos? They are not destroyers. Then let's divide them into a light warrior and a dark warrior. Again, we limit/reduce the ability to choose with the development of two schools. There is a choice of being a warrior (almost without magic) and a paladin (for example, light magic is a priority), but here it's even sadder... In Heroes 5, the race acts as a class. In the Creature Builder, for example, there is a choice of class, but not of race. It is much more important to choose for yourself as the game progresses what you want to become, rather than deciding this at the start! But even here there is a solution. We need to find something that can really be used to divide into classes. But it won't be skills or their probability, or the relationship of these skills to stats.
By the way, dwarves have the opportunity to be divided into classes due to the presence of rune magic. Ten runes and their enhancements are enough to be distinguished as a separate class. But we can also come up with 2 such classes for dwarves: a blacksmith and an engineer. A blacksmith can improve artifacts, modify them, and find them where it would seem they shouldn't be, while an engineer can improve machines, mines, and castle towers, and lay explosives. This is just an example and should not be taken too seriously.
3) So, a human can get light and, for example, summoning (just for example), while the stats for magic and knowledge will be higher. But then there is the problem with the castle. Where can you get summoning? And there is no need to say that "on the map". This would be unfair to the other class. But problem 3 can be solved in an unusual way. Cities can also be divided into classes, and each city of a race can be given completely different native magics ;) I chose a human hero who specializes in summoning - I got a city with the necessary native magics. This is quite interesting, considering that summoning can be useful for humans in the early stages, especially with the presence of the Amulet of Elements or the Phantom. But the possible solution to problem 3 contains the old one: the imposed accuracy of development. So, perhaps we need to think in a slightly different direction.
4) In the mod, for example, there are magic suppressions. If they are used, then it is really possible to divide into classes. But I wrote why they cannot be used. One excludes the other.
P.S. Nargott
In this regard, Heroes 3 is better than Heroes 5 (there are 2 classes per race, while here there is only one, without a choice).
Dividing into classes in the fifth Heroes game, based on the principle of the skill tree, actually deprives us of choice ;)
I meant that it would be good to have several classes, but not exactly like in RPE. The classes should differ in the distribution of stats (%) and the chances of leveling up certain branches. That's enough. Perks and connections can remain the same within each individual faction.
Added 6 minutes later
Plus, when it comes to NHF, it would be very nice to supplement the classes with developed heroes. A level 1 hero with 3 perks is some kind of "underdeveloped" character, in my opinion. There are not enough differences between heroes, especially when new ones are added (the difference is only in the special ability). This is where classes would come in handy, along with the idea of at least 5-6 starting perks (different for each hero) at level 1.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition. Сайт проекта - пока неактивен Автор Асимметричных шахмат
I meant that it would be good to have several classes, but not exactly like in RPE. The classes should differ in the distribution of stats (%) and the chances of upgrading certain branches. That's enough. Perks and affinities can remain the same within each individual Faction.
Added 6 minutes ago Plus, when it comes to NHF, it would be very good to supplement the classes with developed heroes. A level 1 hero with 3 perks is some kind of "underdeveloped" character, in my opinion. There are not enough differences between heroes, especially when new ones are added (the difference is only in the special ability). This is where classes would come in handy, along with the idea of at least 5-6 starting perks (different for each hero) at level 1.
Skills and stats are like the building blocks of our hero. By initially laying out part of the "house," we will have heroes that are already geared towards something. We will have fewer choices for upgrading, and there will only be some kind of "fine-tuning." It would be better to strengthen all special abilities N times. I understand that with such ideas, it will be easier to calculate the game, and if you add some more ideas from WGE, then you can already "read" it. Why create a ready-made control system? Control should be acquired during the game. That's the point: the hero comes as a "dumb newbie," but fights in the finale like a real "hero." You are trying to create a ready-made figure from the hero to move it (like in chess?), but I want us to create that figure ourselves, as we deem necessary within the limits of what is possible.
Added 16 minutes ago By the way, the presence of class analogs in G5 is a plus; ideally, there should be no more than six. Dwarves benefited from rune magic and new creatures (dwarves weren't even given different stats), and orcs benefited from war drums, war cries, and creatures. There are only 6 different combinations of 4 magics. If classes are to be made, then it should be based on some other idea that doesn't exist.
The point is that the hero starts as a "dumb newbie," but fights in the final stages like a true "hero."
Then a fair question arises: why create different types of "dumb newbies" if the player will still develop them into whatever they want? What's the point of these 100-500 generic characters that can be developed in any way, when the difference (within each Faction) will only be in their special ability? A very small difference; the special ability will never account for even 10% of the character's development (unless it's overpowered).
The very essence of NHF loses its meaning: we've added new heroes and special abilities, but the difference between them is actually becoming smaller (more overlap in starting perks, identical stats and their distribution, identical chances for development).
Regarding the "chess" analogy, that's not the point. The fact is that underdeveloped heroes don't have enough differences between them, and therefore there's no point in creating even more of them. We're not talking about giving heroes level 21 or 20-30 perks at the start (full development). We're talking about making the starting data significantly more distinct by adding a couple of additional starting perks.
It would be better to strengthen all special abilities N times.
Enhanced starting perks can be seen as an enhanced (strengthened N times) comprehensive special ability. If there's a will, there's a way, and a corresponding point of view can always be found.
Well, okay, in NHF, the addition of new heroes is only for quantity, that's clear enough.
Now let's return to ASW itself, separate from NHF.
Regarding the classes themselves, if there's a will, an excuse can always be found. You can find 6 combinations of magic, you can find 12, or you can find 15 or 30. Everything (the search for ideas) depends only on the desire. You can not even base it on magic, but find dozens of other fundamental differences.
Added 15 minutes ago
Let's assume that the academics will have a mage and an alchemist. The first actively uses all schools of magic, the second, for example, supports units by increasing attack and ranged attack (mages have 3 ranged attack stacks!), and focuses on synergy instead of spellcasting. Where is the alternative? The alternative that existed before classes simply means that each of these choices will be available for the class.
The point of dividing into classes is specialization and stronger development in one direction or another, depending on the class. If versatility and a large range of available development options are required, classes are not needed. If a range of effective development options is required, then classes are very desirable (even if it means sacrificing some of the versatility in terms of development options in favor of choosing between classes).
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition. Сайт проекта - пока неактивен Автор Асимметричных шахмат
Then a fair question arises: why create different types of "dumb brutes" if the player will still develop everything they want from such simpletons? What's the point of these 100-500 generic units that can be developed in any way, and the difference (within each faction) will only be in the special ability? A very small difference; the special ability will never account for even 10% of the character's development (unless it's overpowered).
The very essence of NHF loses its meaning: we've added new heroes and special abilities, but the difference between them is actually becoming smaller (more repetition in starting perks, identical stats and their distribution, identical chances for development).
Regarding "chess," that's not the point. The fact is that underdeveloped heroes don't have enough differences between them, and therefore there's no point in creating more and more of them. We're not talking about giving heroes level 21 or 20-30 perks at the start (full development). We're talking about making the starting data significantly more distinct by adding a couple of additional starting perks.
These are excuses. It's clear that heroes should differ in their special abilities (it's better to enhance them than to give them a semi-ready starting development) and their starting direction. By the way, given the weaker special abilities, the starting direction already means a lot, and you still want to enhance it... (Remember Vlad and the Outcast Lands in the original version, and Garuna with a quick transition to the Order of the Storm in 3.1.) Nargott
Extended starting perks can be seen as an extended (enhanced N times) comprehensive special ability. If there's a desire, a corresponding point of view can always be found.
You're ruining the choice, reducing the value of the skill wheel. Nargott
Well, okay, in NHF, adding new heroes is only for quantity, that's clear enough.
Wrong again! It's for new special abilities ;) Nargott
Now let's return to ASW in particular, separate from NHF.
Regarding the classes themselves - if there's a desire, an excuse can always be found. You can find 6 combinations of magic, you can find 12, or you can find 15 or 30. Everything (the search for ideas) depends only on the desire. You can not even base it on magic, but find dozens of other fundamental differences.
Added 15 minutes ago
The point of dividing into classes is specialization and stronger development in one direction or another, depending on the class. If versatility and a large available range of development are required, classes are not needed. If a effective range of development is required, then classes are very desirable (even if some of the versatility is lost in the question of development and replaced by the question of choosing between classes).
You shouldn't turn heroes more and more into figures; they already partially have those traits. ;) The player should create effectiveness themselves! Why make heroes more casual with this method? Is it G6 again?
By the way, given the weaker special abilities, the starting direction already matters a lot, and you still want to enhance it...
So, with the addition of a bunch of new heroes, these starting directions are starting to overlap more and more for different heroes.
You're ruining the choice, reducing the value of the wheel.
We're not discussing WGE here, so I can't "ruin the choice" here, because ASW is not my project.
Again, you missed! For the sake of new special abilities ;)
Well, I'm saying - quantity for the sake of quantity.
Don't turn heroes into figures even more, they already partially have those traits ;)
What figures? What are you even talking about? You pulled chess out of thin air.
The player should create efficiency himself! Why make heroes more casual with this method? Another G6?
G6 is the opposite, heroes without starting perks in principle. There, the player can really shape 100% of what he wants. That's what casualness is.
Added 2 minutes ago And I have this question: 1) you don't want to introduce classes; 2) you don't want to introduce starting upgrades;
so what is the point of the project then? There is already TE, where exactly the same rebalancing of the wheel is carried out. Or is this just your own variation of TE in terms of the wheel? ("And this is how I would tweak the wheel if I were the author of TE!")
I don't see any features that would fundamentally distinguish this project from TE.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition. Сайт проекта - пока неактивен Автор Асимметричных шахмат
So, with the addition of a bunch of new heroes, these starting directions are starting to overlap more and more for different heroes.
No matter how much you tell him, it's all the same. Nargott
We're not discussing WGE here, so I can't "ruin the choice" here, because ASW is not my project.
That's the point ;) Don't turn this project into WGE. This was a response to your class suggestions!Nargott
Well, I'm saying - quantity for the sake of quantity.
So, in your project, is the combat being reworked to reduce speeds? (Similar interpretation;) ) This example is to make it clearer. Nargott
What figures? What are you even talking about? You pulled chess out of thin air.
See the first answer. Nargott
G6 is the opposite, heroes without starting perks in principle. There, the player can really create 100% of what he wants. This is what casualness is.
Added 2 minutes ago And I have a question: 1) you don't want to introduce classes; 2) you don't want to introduce starting upgrades;
what is the point of the project then? There is already TE, where exactly the same rebalancing of the wheel is carried out. Or is this just your own variation of TE in terms of the wheel? ("And here's how I would rework the wheel if I were the author of TE!")
I don't see any features that would fundamentally distinguish this project from TE.
All the better, since we can't read the first message of the topic ;)
Dyrman
