Posts from Time is money, or are you going to waste it?

Hello everyone. I want to raise a topic that has concerned me for a long time, namely "Online Game Time." This topic does not encourage anyone to do anything; I simply want to express my overall view of the situation. **History** Let's start with history. Online play in Heroes began somewhere around 2007. Unfortunately, much hasn't survived, but more or less regular tournaments and decent rules appeared sometime towards the end of 2008. Tournaments started being held on HotA even earlier, something like 2003-2004, but even there, I couldn't find an early version of the rules. What I did see when I joined HotA was that the rule set had a turn timer of 4 minutes. With the introduction of the Jebus Cross template in early 2009, a discussion arose about switching to 6 minutes. I don't remember if we had this topic here; I didn't find it, but on HotA, there was THIS one. At that time, most people supported the idea, and on **March 10, 2009**, changes were made to the rules. On **July 30, 2009**, vbn invented the HMM3 Lighter program, which allowed troops and artifacts to be transferred from hero to hero with a single button. This was an argument for SoD players not to switch to WT, which appeared almost at the same time. Time passed, tournaments were played, and then HD-mod by baratorch appeared. I don't know exactly when it appeared, but our forum shows information appearing on **October 1, 2010**. This was a real breakthrough for fans of SoD. It seemed like HERE IT IS – a solution to all problems: fast army transfer, separation of units, and many other useful features. Now, in terms of interface, SoD could compete with WT. Then began an illogical and incomprehensible process for me... **THE TURN TIMER STARTED TO INCREASE.** WTF??? How? Why? :confused: People started playing consistently with 8 minutes, and often even 10... :smile11: The reasons for this action were varied: some felt more comfortable, some wanted a higher quality game, and for others, it was the only way to compete with professionals. In general, the arguments are logical and understandable, but the trend itself seems alarming to me. On **April 9, 2012**, the question of turn limits for different templates was raised in a vote. Personally, I see this as a warning sign. On **September 1, 2012**, the "Favorites, into Battle - 5" tournament starts at this link, where the time limit is 8 minutes on CM and balance maps, and 10 minutes on the rest of the templates. For me personally, this is a reason to start this topic (I just didn't have time before). **Reasons** Now I will try to explain the position that I hold in this matter. Of course, it is obvious that the more time given per turn, the better the game becomes. Offline tournaments (single-player games played for speed) are an example of this; during real-time, a perfect game can be shown. While this may be somewhat different, the point is clear. However, there are several drawbacks: 1. **Prolongation.** Increasing the time per turn prolongs the game. What could be played in one go or, if necessary, in two, now takes three or more turns. This leads to delays in tour deadlines, extensions of tournament timelines, and consequently, players dropping out and losing interest. I won't even mention that there has become a trend of not finishing postponed games or withdrawing from tournaments because of unwillingness to spend time on non-decisive games. If you used to be able to play several tournaments, now players simply can't handle it. 2. **Game Quality.** Many use this argument. However, watching streams of games, which there are plenty of now, I came to the conclusion that there isn't enough of it. People play with 10 minutes and actually sit there thinking; they really don't have enough of those 10 minutes. Previously, when playing SoD with 4-minute turns (without Lighter, without HD), some players managed to show a very decent level that many players of the modern generation wouldn't even dream of. Personally, I remember such players as Paladin, Stinger, vitalic, Pit, invisible, scorp, Neoandy, Deep Mike, and many others. These people were creating wonders at that time. And I haven't even mentioned that Chaos League was played with even 2-minute turns. Tournaments held in clubs before TE also had fast turn timers. And people still played. 3. **Spectacle.** Many complain that Heroes is not an esports discipline, that games last for hours, and it's boring to watch... Last year, Heroes appeared on the sk2tv website, where tournaments were held on small maps. At first, everyone laughed, but then all the players got involved, and I even played several matches according to the rules of this tournament. For me, the advantages were obvious: the game took from 1 to 3 hours, moves were passed quickly, and the dynamics were amazing. Now I understand that kalababa and co know what they are doing. Respect. But now, waiting an hour for a move....... 4. **Equal Conditions.** Some say that when prolonging the game, you need to do a lot of things with several leveled heroes with control. But the opponent has the same situation; they also need to do the same thing. The ability to make quick and accurate decisions faster than your opponent is also part of the skill. 5. **History of Time in Chess.** Before the introduction of clocks, games could drag on for days or more until someone wore out their opponent. With the advent of clocks in the 19th century, the problem was solved. I won't go into details; here is just a chronology.

After the introduction of time control, the limit was constantly reduced:
initially, at the end of the 19th century, it was 2 hours for every 20 moves;
in the first half of the 20th century, they often played with a control of 2 hours for the first 30 moves and 1 hour for each subsequent 15;
by the second half of the 20th century, the limit decreased to 2.5 hours for the first 40 moves and 1 hour for each subsequent 16;
at the end of the 1980s, a control of 1.5 hours for the first 30 moves and 1 hour for each subsequent 30 moves was tested.

In recent years, tournaments have often used control with added time, for example, "Fisher tournament control," which is a combination of traditional limits on the period and Fisher control. In this system, the game is divided into three stages:
100 minutes for 40 moves (unused time is added to the limit of the second period);
50 minutes for 20 moves (unused time is added to the limit of the third period);
10 minutes until the end of the game, according to the Fischer system; after each move made, the player automatically receives an additional 30 seconds.

Now, blitz and rapid are more popular in chess because they take less time and offer greater spectacle. **Conclusion** What I want to say in conclusion. I wrote a lot of nonsense. But the meaning of it all is simple. Skill is the ability to show the best game under any time control. Those who manage to do more in less time are rightfully winning, while those who like to play slowly and move pieces leisurely can lose. The purpose of all this writing is to awaken the thought in the minds of the forum that we need to get moving, and there will be much more enjoyment from the game and tournaments. Think about it, think about it before it's too late:smile16:. I am not suggesting cutting everything off abruptly; I just suggest **trying** to reduce the game time, at least in casual games. Maybe later we will reach tournaments as well. Let's argue! :smile35:

Kostyan, I'm amazed how someone who can resolve a dispute with a single phrase makes a statement that sparks endless debate)))

P.S. My solution to the problem is a chess timer.

Kostyan, I'm amazed how someone who can resolve a dispute with a single phrase makes a statement that sparks endless debate)))

The situation requires drastic measures. Otherwise, we'll soon be playing for 30 minutes each game.

P.S. My solution is a chess timer.

It doesn't solve the problem. Some people think 4000+400 is not enough, and some even play with 6000+600.... The point is that we need to reduce the game time even at the expense of quality.

4000+500
if spent wisely (Jebus Cross is an exception) - it lasts a long time. Based on experience (WoG experience, of course, with auto-combat), if you rotate wisely, by week 3 you'll have 1500-2000 left.

Exaggerating about 30 minutes, but 10 minutes is a necessary measure on some templates. Usually 5-6 minutes is enough, but sometimes even 10 is too little. The other question is how the gamer will use those 10 minutes - whether they'll waste it on contemplation, or absorb maximum info and finish their turn.
That's exactly why a chess timer seems like the ideal stimulant to me.

However, after watching streams of games, which there are plenty of now, I came to the conclusion that there isn't enough time. People play for 10 minutes and just sit there doing nothing; they really don't have enough time in those 10 minutes.

In the past, when people played with a 4-minute timer on simple SoD (without Lighter, without HD), some players managed to show a very decent level of skill, something that many modern players can only dream of.

+++

Personally, I remember players like Paladin...

I do too. Very often, actually. And I tell others about it.

/topic/at/215736/
Playing for more than 6 minutes has become boring.

There were no HD mods at that time, and this guy wasn't playing; he was amazing!
And now, it makes me laugh when strong players and not so strong ones, especially "those who aren't so strong," say things like, "What? 6 minutes? That's too little! I won't have time to demonstrate my skills; let's make it 10!"

But when you watch streams, there's a guy just staring blankly at the monitor, chanting something in a trance like a shaman. In the past, increasing the time was really done to allow enough time to handle technical aspects: dividing units, transferring an army – physically, there simply wasn't enough time for elementary tasks. But now they've gotten used to taking their time and are slowing down! If you look at replays after a game, what did you do during those turns when each turn took 20-25 minutes? Nothing!!! Ni - che - go!!! The hero is poorly leveled up, and exploration is poor.

Now, when I see battles where 3 stacks of zombies take 20 minutes, it bothers me!

Of course, you immediately put such players on your list of slowpokes and forget about playing with them. But this is a trend...

In my opinion, it's useful to play blitz games every now and then with a timer of 2-4 minutes under stressful conditions, just so that your brain doesn't get rusty. And these games can be very dynamic! A minute is ridiculous, but 2-4 minutes is fine!

Kostya, there are plenty of noobs here now; they need a lot of time. You're right, there's no one like Paladin and co. here.
My opinion is that 2-4 minutes is needed.
Even on Jebus Cross they play on 1 minute.

Even Jebus Cross is played on 1 min.

they play. the question is who and how....

Back then, when playing with 4 minutes on vanilla SoD (no lighter, no HD), some players managed to show a very respectable level that many players of the modern generation couldn't even dream of. Personally, I remember players like Paladin, Stinger, vitalic, Pit, invisible, scorp, Neoandy, Deep Mike, and many, many others. Those people worked wonders at the time. Not to mention that in the chaos league, they played on as little as 2 minutes. Tournaments played in clubs before the appearance of TE were also held with fast clocks. And people still played.

The grass was greener back then.

I agree regarding the chess clocks — it's an incentive to think faster and save time on simple moves so that some remains for the complex ones.
Besides, people choose for themselves what they are more comfortable playing with; there was a vote and it was quite telling.

If you want to play Starcraft or Quake, go ahead and play them, there's no need to pressure others... Many find it convenient to do their own things (family, work, playing other games, etc.) while waiting for their opponent's turn, while others find it inconvenient. That's why there's a chess timer; you can agree on a time limit, and there's even Alessandro with 600+300, so you can team up and play. I won't say anything about the level of play with such a time limit, so as not to offend anyone.
The St. Petersburg community grew (in 1999) playing Divided Loyalties with a 2-minute time limit, and QuickCombat (3 tactical combats per game). There was no need to think much; all the moves were practiced to death. Gradually, people realized that this wasn't really a game (everyone would spend half an hour thinking about what to do in battles, and some even spent an hour...).

Initially, SK2TV rules had us playing on 2-minute [timers], but then, when the HeroesWorld crew joined the scene, they rigged it to 4 minutes. 4 minutes on M with average monsters! Naturally, there was less mental strain, and the thrill just wasn't the same.
And remember the time when the trend of moving away from 2SM4D3 began? In the end, it all devolved into an even dumber variant — Jebus Cross.
IMHO, no positive changes should be expected in the community. You can make your own sandbox according to your interests.

I suggest we eliminate those who take too long to make a decision. Sorry, Oelm.

What is the purpose of this poll? Dirty_Player has been inactive online for almost a year, and even before that, he wasn't considered a hardcore player. Anyone can have a bad day, and frankly, the "Nagan-style" boosting is just cringe-worthy. No need for fairy tales about an incredibly high level of play. Any top player understands the difference in the quality of moves at 4 minutes and at 8 minutes. Since Kostya doesn't play online, I suggest that those who support him create alternative rules, play, and survive in a competitive environment. But won't this be "CRAZY" for the heroes? Because a reasonable person with a clear head understands that these 2 minutes don't change anything when you can enter a battle and think for as long as you want, for example, planning movements. Now it should be clear to everyone that a chess timer and a replayable quick battle should be implemented in SOD. Only after that does it make sense to return to this topic. Two points for comparison. Timer of 6 and 8 minutes: saves a maximum of 25% of time. In reality, it's less because people still try to do everything that's a priority. And save on less important things. Plus, there's the opportunity to think about movements in battles, which can negate everything. Replayable quick combat. In the late game, for example, on HL templates, it saves at least 25-30 percent of time. On templates like Jebus on the second week, the time saved can be 50+% of the game time. For example, after building a castle with archangels, battles in the center may not be needed at all. Decide for yourselves. P.S. Satyr, God forgive you. You seem to be a speed demon in life. :) Although, I guess people like you that way.

Chess clocks are really useful. You can quickly make moves that don't require much thought, which saves you time for more complex moves. However, 4000+500 is too much; it should be less. Although, when I used to play with less time, I sometimes couldn't keep up. But it's okay; after a few games, you can get used to it and move faster. P.S. This is precisely why I play Heroes for 1-2 months and then stop, as it consumes a lot of time.

So, who's forcing you? You can play one game a week without causing significant disruption to everything else.

So, who's forcing you? You can play one game a week without causing significant disruption to everything else.

EXACTLY!!!