Posts from Manuals on initiative (specifically for RTA 2.2.0)

Guide author: Imladris (Imladris#8746 on Discord)

Initiative is a key unit parameter in the combat phase.
It determines both the unit's strength and its area of application, often reflects the unit's importance on the battlefield at a given moment, and characterizes it as a combat unit and a strategic resource.
Initiative is one of the first concepts you encounter when playing "Heroes V." A unit's initiative, along with its speed, is almost the first thing a player must learn or be able to roughly estimate as soon as they begin to understand the game, remember the units themselves, and possibly their "range."

In this topic, we will discuss the practical side of initiative and the ATB bar, and particularly analyze how to interact with a unit's position on the ATB bar — a function viewable by Random Tactical Arena players starting from RTA version 2.2.0.
Most sections will be useful for players of the original game or other modifications for a deeper understanding of the mechanics.

Section 1. Initiative — a Number on the Screen

Before diving into calculations, let's turn to the terms and their origins.

Heroes V broke the "turn" system in the tactical phase. The clear and logical phases of battle, in which each unit moved once, specifically before or after other units on the battlefield, were replaced by a system that at first glance seemed non-discrete — the ATB bar.

In many ways, this developer decision, in my opinion, turned "yet another" installment of Heroes into the most tactically rich. One can argue a lot about the dullness, monotony, and slowness of Heroes V's gameplay on full maps, but one cannot deny that the introduction of the ATB bar was a qualitative leap for the tactical phase. It's no coincidence that only in Heroes V are Arenas so popular compared to the original.

So, we got a system where turns flow smoothly back and forth, it would seem — and so what? Formalization.
The fact is that the absence of "turns" is not entirely true in practice. The intrusive TURN N table is no longer (or still, see HoMM VI) displayed on the screen, and even if such a table were introduced, we would get very little value from the absolute turn number.
However, most "duration-based" effects in the game are still applied not to the number of unit actions, but to "ATB units."

So, the most important term for our discussion:

ATB Unit // One ATB Bar // One ATB - the distance contained between two consecutive turns of the same unit with an initiative of 10 (100 in RTA 2.0 and later)

Hereafter, I will use the initiative multiplied by 10 from RHH to avoid confusion.

Spoiler for those who don't know what this is and why

Initiative in HoMM V is a positive rational number, although it is displayed to the player as a positive integer.
After applying Haste (+30% initiative) to a unit whose base initiative is 11, we get a final figure of 11x1.3=14.3 initiative. The player will see the number 14 on the screen; in further calculations and assessments, we will lose 0.3 units of initiative, which will significantly affect the quality of our estimates.
To fix this, all initiative in the game in RTA 2.0 was multiplied by 10. This did not affect effects or the order of turns in any way, but made the display of initiative on the screen significantly (by an order of magnitude) more accurate.

Why is it convenient to use this particular division of battle?

First, simply put — a ten is convenient for calculations.

Second, on the field (except for exceptional cases typical of hero mods), there is always a unit with an initiative of 100 — the hero.

Hero Initiative: not displayed on screen, but equals 100. The only exception to this rule is Ora from the Wizard faction.

Ora

After we have defined what an ATB unit is, we are ready to examine the movement of units along the bar in detail. The following information is written for players, therefore it covers only important routine and somewhat advanced points, excluding, for example, situations where the end of the "Haste" spell moves a unit forward on the ATB bar. These mechanical subtleties are not of interest to us right now.

Section 2. Initiative — Speed of Movement Along the Bar

It's easiest to imagine an ATB unit as a large running stadium.

The "start" point and the "finish" point coincide. All units run the same distance around the track, equal to 1 ATB.
You can always replace an ATB unit with any power of ten convenient for your calculations, replace it with "one thousand meters."

The fact remains. Everyone runs — in a circle, starting and ending at the same point.

For convenience, let's call the "start" - 0 ATB (short for "position at 0.00 on the ATB bar")
The "finish" - 1 ATB (short for "position at 1.00 on the ATB bar"), then
unit's position on the ATB bar - the distance separating the creature from point 0 on the ATB bar. It lies in the interval [0;1], except for exceptional situations, which we might discuss in a more advanced section.

Starting ATB

As soon as the battle begins, units are not positioned right at the "start," but are randomly shuffled over a small section of the track. In the original game, a unit starts its first "lap" from a position belonging to the interval [0; 0.25] ATB, in RTA 2.0 and later [0;0.15].
A small scripted change in ATB at the very start of the battle — moving units from a "wide" spread to a "narrow", RTA-style one — there's no need to fear this.
Our race is an unfair game where not all are equal, and some even get help through magic!

Unit's Turn - the moment when the creature reaches the finish and is at position 1.00 on the ATB bar, without exception.

The position of units on the ATB changes each time a creature ends its turn. At a random moment in a random battle, units might be positioned on the bar like this:

Screen-ATB.png (22.96 KB) 118 views

For simplicity in further actions, let's translate the action to a stadium, where, amidst the roar of the stands, we continue to master the game:

 

In most cases, this is how the picture appeared for all players before it was possible to see the exact position of a unit on the bar. It was always possible to estimate something, and heroes, for example, could be calculated precisely, but complex, non-routine positions were always a mystery, and actions had to be based on estimates rather than calculations.
As we can see, the Paladin leads the race and, if nothing terrible happens, will reach the "finish" and gain the right to act first. After him, the Inquisitor will act, followed by the Warmonger.
For players of version 2.2.0 and later, the picture gains new data

(the unit's position on the ATB is shown without a background, its initiative is on the background)
I have marked the path the unit must travel to the finish with lines of different colors. It is not called anything short and universally recognized, but it is precisely with its help that we perform further calculations.

Let's pay attention to the Inquisitor.

During the time elapsed since its last turn, the Inq has covered a full 0.43 ATB, almost half, and is already ready to burst onto the home stretch.
As you might have guessed,
Until the unit's next turn, there is 1 - (unit's position on ATB) ATB units left

Applying the formula to the Inquisitor, there is left to go until its next turn:
1 - 0.43 = 0.57 ATB
Although the distance to the finish easily translates into the distance to the start — the position on ATB — we are literally looking "from the other side," it is usually not used in routine conversations and is only applied for calculations, as it is customary to measure the position from zero.

Right here, we must return to the very beginning and notice one huge gaping hole in the entire fabric of the text. What we missed, what we omitted and skipped over to return to later. Having defined all related terms, we left the very concept of "initiative" unattended. Now is precisely the time to fill this gap.

Initiative - the speed at which a unit moves along the ATB bar.

Now that we know where to find the distance and where to look for the speed, school mathematics tells us that finding the time is no trouble at all.

Time required for a unit to perform its turn = (1 - position on ATB) / initiative

For practice, let's determine the time each unit in the picture needs to gain the right to act

1. Paladin: (1-0.87)/110 = 0.001181
2. Inquisitor: (1-0.43)/100 = 0.0057
3. Warmonger: (1-0.15)/80 = 0.0106

We have mastered the basic skill — we have learned to calculate the time until a unit's turn.
When determining the turn order of anything, we only look at time.

In this example, units with a higher position on ATB (smaller numerator) had higher initiative (larger denominator), which guarantees us the same order on the bar as on the stadium. But this will not always be the case.

Let's try to reproduce the order of units on the ATB, given their position and initiative

Fury: 0.5 ATB, 140 ini
Assassin: 0.7 ATB, 110 ini
Minotaur: 0.75 ATB, 80 ini

Units on the ATB bar (the one at the bottom of the screen) are arranged according to the time remaining until their turn.
Let's calculate.

Fury: (1-0.5)/140 = 0.00357
Assassin: (1-0.7)/110 = 0.00272
Minotaur: (1-0.75)/80 = 0.0031

This means on the ATB bar, the "leftmost" will be the Assassin, then the Minotaur, and then the Fury.

In principle, when we already know the positions of units on the bar, further calculations are no trouble and are even useless. Our task is not to assess the current situation, but to be able to predict how the ATB will look after certain actions.

The ATB bar is a completely non-static thing that changes with every player action. A huge number of different effects influence what position a creature will end up in, how quickly it will get its turn (also said: fill its ATB).

All these effects can be divided into two groups, which affect the turn order in fundamentally different ways:

1. Accelerators

2. Pushers

Section 3. To Know How the ATB Will Look, You Need Every Day...

A large number of effects in battle change the turn order of units, bringing the turn of some creatures closer and delaying the arrival of the turn of others.
As we found out earlier, the time of a turn's arrival depends only on two parameters: position on ATB and initiative.
Accordingly, all effects that change the turn order actually influence one of these parameters. There is simply no other way for interaction to come from.
Let's examine each of the two types of effects in order, learn how to calculate and predict them.

Section 3.1. Accelerators

Let's call accelerators any effect that positively or negatively influences a stack's initiative.

For example:
Haste
Prayer
Leader's Aura
Ornella's specialization
Ora's specialization
Slow
Banshee Howl
Raelag's specialization
(formally, the latter effects are "decelerators," but they work exactly like accelerators and are therefore not separated into a distinct category; they merely represent an accelerator with a reverse sign)

The effect of an "accelerator" (as well as a pusher) applies only to the part of the ATB that the unit has not yet traversed.
This means that if a unit receives such an effect and remains under it until the end of the battle, it will pass through both its current ATB and all subsequent ones faster. Moreover, the full effect begins only after the unit's next turn.

This is an important idea that doesn't immediately sink in for the player: accelerators have a delayed effect; they unfold over time. Therefore, after applying Haste, for example, to a Fury that is already at position 0.85, you get a smaller bonus than if you had applied it to an Assassin who is currently at 0.2.
So don't swear and shout if you've applied an accelerator and the unit didn't "jump" on the ATB bar.

Let's calculate the benefit of Haste on the Fury from the previous example

Let's calculate the benefit gained only on the current ATB, assuming:
Fury's initiative before Haste: 160
Fury's position on ATB: 0.85
Light Magic skill: Expert
Haste: +30% initiative

Case 1) Haste was not applied to the Fury. Time required until the unit's turn is (1-0.85)/160 = 0.0009375
Case 2) Haste was applied to the Fury. Time required until the unit's turn is (1-0.85)/(160*1.3) = 0.15/208 = 0.00072
The Fury received an initiative boost for only 15% of its current path, using the doping only at the end of the distance.
As it's not hard to guess, due to the linearity of the function, if the Fury had received Haste immediately after its turn (assuming the distance between the turn of the hasted unit and the caster is zero), the time it saved would be equal to
(0.0009357-0.00072)/0.15 = 0.001438
instead of 0.0002157

Remember, the earlier you care about your unit's initiative, the more benefit it gets!

So, how to calculate time after an accelerator?
1. Look at the unit's current position (only in the unit menu or by right-clicking on it. Data on the ATB bar itself lags).
2. Subtract the position from one.
3. Calculate what the initiative will become after applying the effect.
4. Divide the "distance" by the "speed"

Often you need to know specifically whether our unit will act "before" or "after" another unit after modification. Compare the time. The smaller it is, the sooner the turn arrives.

Profit, you're fantastic!

Challenge problem

Will the Centaur overtake the Paladin if:
The Leader is currently taking its turn and is approaching the Centaur. The Centaur is at position 0.2.
When the Centaur is at position 0.4, the Leader will die.
Centaur's initiative without aura: 105
Paladin's position: 0.33
Paladin's initiative: 100
Hint: "complex" movement can be broken down into a set of "simple" ones.

For the "Freeze" from the Lord of Frost, a unit's initiative can be considered zero for the duration specified in the effect's terms.

Section 3.2. Pushers

Pusher - any positive or negative effect that changes the unit's position on the ATB specifically
For example:
Leader's Push
Inspire
Orc Hero's Push
Summon Wasp Swarm
Scare
Shield Bash
Storm Lord
Defense
Hero Defense
Wait
Distract
Sorcery
Expert Blind (starting from RTA version 2.2 sets back to 0 ATB)
These effects act directly on the unit's position on the ATB bar, shortening or increasing the distance to the "finish," leaving the unit's speed unchanged.

Let's see in practice

20 Leaders push the Centaur. Will it overtake the enemy shooter if:
Centaur's position: 0.4
Centaur's initiative: 110
Shooter's position: 0.5
Shooter's initiative: 130
1. 20 Leaders push the unit by 0.20 ATB (1% ATB per Leader)
2. After the push, the Centaur's ATB becomes 0.6
3. Time needed for the Centaur = (1-0.6)/110 = 0.003636
4. Time needed for the Shooter = (1-0.5)/130 = 0.003846
Answer: yes, it will overtake.

Given that the perk in Lord of Lightning pushes the unit back by half of its accumulated progress on the bar, let's find out which initiative cannot escape this "trap" and act again.
Hero: initiative 100
Sorcery: Expert
Creature's initiative: ?
Creature's position on ATB: 0.5 (for this example; for other cases, calculate separately)
1. The hero casting the spell goes to position 0.3 on the ATB
2. With an initiative of 100, the hero will act again after 0.007
3. The unit hit by lightning goes to position 0.25
4. To overtake the hero, 0.75/x < 0.007
Its initiative must be higher than 107.14 ini.

So, to calculate time after the effect of a "pusher":
1. Add/subtract the perk's effect from the current position on ATB
2. Subtract the resulting number from one
3. Divide the result by the initiative

Subtleties. Shield Bash, Scare, Distract, Negative ATB

Due to discrete initiative updates, after Distract, the hero is in a negative position on the ATB exactly for the distance between their cast and the next unit's turn.
Section under development.

Glossary

1. ATB Unit // One ATB Bar // One ATB - the distance contained between two consecutive turns of the same unit with an initiative of 10 (100 in RTA 2.0 and later)
2. Unit's Turn - the moment when the creature reaches the finish and is at position 1.00 on the ATB bar
3. Initiative - the speed at which a unit moves along the ATB bar.
4. Accelerator - a positive or negative effect that directly influences a unit's initiative
5. Pusher - any positive or negative effect that changes the unit's position on the ATB specifically

Thanks for the "repost") Come and play RTA with us and explore different game mechanics!

there's one problem, but how do you actually apply this in practice? For example, there's a value, and there are modifiers that change that value. Who will be able to calculate anything accurately, except perhaps to determine whether freezing or lightning is better in a given situation when both are available, if such a calculation can't be done in under a minute?

It is quite possible to calculate the basic actions (wait/morale/speed) in about a minute. I have done this repeatedly and seen others do it as well. If you do it regularly and use a calculator, the difficulty decreases significantly, I guarantee it. Moreover, this is a rather selective calculation that is needed at some critical moment in the game: for example, when it is necessary to use a paladin to outpace a subordinate stack or something similar.

https://c2n.me/4d7GD4j Here's an example. How can I determine the current position of a selected unit? Let's say that in some version, the scale looks longer. Where does the position number come from (if not by manual counting)?

Added 8 minutes later
The initiative of the selected unit is 11 (10 base + dragon ring). Where do I get the input data "current position" from?

If based on comments and examples:

"Fury's position on the ATB: 0.85" - where does this number come from?
Even if it's calculated manually, is it calculated by counting the number of units and machines on the scale and dividing 1 by that number, and then multiplying by the distance (in my case, 8)?

Aha, that's the issue. Let me explain.
There's a mod map for Tribes of the East: Random Tactical Arena. Starting from version 2.0, it uses a modified executable file, and starting from version 2.2, the units display their position on the initiative bar. I mentioned this in the article, but I didn't include a screenshot, so it might not be entirely obvious.
Click here for the picture

The section dedicated to precise calculations is included with the map and the battles on it. For the regular interface, we can only approximately estimate the position of the units, guessing which spells the hero cast and where they moved him. Without such a table, the section with calculations and tasks for counting effects is indeed close to meaningless and impossible.

or is there a different formula there, like (scale_length - 8) / scale_length, or something? (by trial and error?)

Added 1 minute ago
oh, well then it only applies to the mod, I can't say anything, I haven't played it(((

Even if you count manually, is it about counting the number of units and machines on the scale and dividing 1 by that number, and then multiplying by the distance (in my case, 8)?

This doesn't quite work because the distance between units varies. They aren't "right next to" each other, so accurate calculations are only possible in RTA (Real-Time Analysis), and I've posted a picture above. For players of the original game, it's simply a little basic information about how to use ATB (Action Turn-Based) and why initiative is important. For example, how acceleration works and why a unit doesn't "jump" – players don't always understand this even after playing for a considerable time and earning accolades. Understanding this from the beginning of the game experience is very useful.