First Impressions — General

In reply to atlant108

Heleg

1/14/2017 1:21 PM UTC

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atlant108

The forum is gaining momentum!

In my opinion, even the less successful Heroes 6 was discussed more actively than Heroes 7.

In reply to flyrix

Android

3/4/2017 2:56 AM UTC

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flyrix

1. Bring back the ATB scale!!!

The ATB scale is heresy and unpredictable nonsense that prolongs battles. Seriously, I hate the fact that I can't accurately predict the turn order, like in Heroes of Might and Magic III.
And don't tell me "you just haven't figured it out," because I have, as I used to play the browser game Guild Wars a lot, so I have a lot of experience with the ATB scale, but my conclusions are the same.

In reply to Android

KillAndAction

3/4/2017 5:07 AM UTC

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Android

ATB scale is heresy and unpredictable nonsense that prolongs battles. Honestly, I dislike the fact that I can't accurately predict the turn order, like in Heroes of Might and Magic III.
And don't tell me "you just haven't figured it out," I have, because I used to play the browser game Heroes of Might and Magic Online a lot, so I have a lot of experience with the ATB scale, but my conclusions are the same.

Play Heroes of Might and Magic V with the tournament mod! ;)

Будьте осторожны со своими желаниями. Иногда они исполняются.
Сервер в Discord
Стрим на twitch.tv
Стрим на GG

ЛИДЕР Клана"ХРАНИТЕЛИ НЕБЕСНЫХ ВРАТ" Рейтинг: Латник
Вступление в клан "Хранители небесных врат"

serovoy

3/4/2017 10:07 AM UTC

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What bothers someone there is their personal business. The ATB scale is a good thing, and that's a fact.

Ment

3/4/2017 10:19 AM UTC

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Honestly, what bothers me is the fact that I can't accurately predict the turn's outcome, like in Heroes of Might and Magic III.

There is a random element, sure, but you can still predict the turn. The no-turn mode in Heroes of Might and Magic V increases the importance of initiative (which is otherwise a rather useless stat if you're not a ranged attacker or a creature with very high speed) and allows for some very interesting tactics, such as stunning and other maneuvers.

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In reply to Android

Андрей

3/4/2017 2:03 PM UTC

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Android

The ATB scale is heresy and unpredictable nonsense that prolongs battles. Honestly, I dislike the fact that I can't accurately predict the turn, like in Heroes 3.
And don't tell me "you just haven't figured it out," because I have, as I used to play the browser game GVD a lot, so I have a lot of experience with the ATB scale, but my conclusions are the same.

But doesn't luck bother you? It also doesn't allow you to accurately predict the turn (even in Heroes 3). This is the first time I've heard someone say that the ATB scale prolongs battles.

ДУРАКОВ ОЧЕНЬ МАЛО, НО ОНИ РАССТАВЛЕНЫ ТАК ГРАМОТНО, ЧТО ВСТРЕЧАЮТСЯ НА КАЖДОМ ШАГУ.
Прошу прощения у Arandor-а. Я слишком резко отреагировал. Просто очень люблю спорт. Извини...[/SIZE]

In reply to Андрей

Android

3/5/2017 2:33 PM UTC

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Andrey

Doesn't luck bother you? After all, it also doesn't allow you to accurately calculate the turn (even in "Heroes 3"). I'm hearing for the first time that someone says that the ATB scale prolongs battles.

Luck? Hmm... what's wrong with it? Maybe you mean morale? Although, whether it's luck or morale, it's acceptable and good randomness (experienced players usually defend against morale), without it, it would be very boring. But the ATB scale is not designed for such battles; maybe some people don't know, but all this "amazing, cool" ATB stuff came from games like Final Fantasy, where two squads stand opposite each other and beat each other up, which is quite acceptable for FF, but not for Heroes with its interesting and complex battles. That's why there are so many videos and guides for "Heroes 3" on how to clear out castles, crypts, etc. But I don't know if there's anything similar for "Heroes 5"? And in general, why didn't this "genius" scale catch on in parts 6 and 7? In short, if you don't like calculating and prefer to play "for fun," then the ATB scale is perfect; it immediately shows who goes next, and you don't have to calculate or memorize anything... it's casual gaming.

Ment

3/5/2017 2:49 PM UTC

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but not for heroes with its interesting and complex battles

Why?

Why are there so many videos and guides on clearing out castles, crypts, etc. for the third game? But I don't know if there's anything similar for the fifth game?

The fifth game is less deterministic in this regard, and that's a good thing. The ability to create a guide that, when followed, guarantees victory in a particular map is a drawback. You just repeat it and get success. But it's not clear how the initiative scale is to blame here... The system of the third or seventh game is just a degenerate case where all creatures have the same initiative (with an accuracy of a small number that determines the turn order, but does not allow creatures to "mix" on the scale).

And in general, why didn't such a "brilliant" scale catch on in the 6th and 7th parts?

The transition of features from one part to another is not very well correlated with how good these features are (although it is correlated).

In short, if you don't like to calculate and you like to play "for fun" (or just for fun), then of course, the ATB scale is the best, it immediately shows who goes after whom, you don't have to calculate or memorize anything... it's casual.

So, is the problem with the fifth game's system its non-determinism, or, on the contrary, its excessive determinism? I don't understand... And what can you calculate in the classic turn-based system, a creature's double turn after waiting? :D

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serovoy

3/5/2017 3:18 PM UTC

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Well, Heroes of Might and Magic III isn't exactly a casual game – once you memorize the movement speeds of the creatures, you always know who goes when. (sarcasm)

Utiferus

3/5/2017 5:09 PM UTC

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By the way, what turn-based system is used in the seventh installment?

Ment

3/5/2017 7:18 PM UTC

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Turn-based.

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In reply to Ment

Android

3/6/2017 4:54 AM UTC

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Ment

So, is the problem with the turn-based system in Heroes 5 its non-determinism, or, on the contrary, its excessive determinism? I don't understand... And what can be calculated in a classic turn-based system, like a creature getting a double turn after waiting? :D

For example, there's Heroes 3 with a turn-based system, and there's Heroes 7 with the same system (but in Heroes 7, there's a "cheat sheet" with its turn order scale). Does it become a problem to calculate the turn without this scale? No, in both Heroes 3 and Heroes 7, the turn can be calculated.
Now, let's consider Heroes 5 with its Initiative system. Let's imagine that this "cheat sheet" is removed from Heroes 5. Will the supporters of the brilliant ATB scale be able to calculate the turn? In simple battles, yes, but in more complex ones, probably not.
The scale with turn orders is quite normal and convenient, but the initiative system itself is applicable, as in Final Fantasy, but not for the Heroes series. Traditions, or whatever you want to call it, is like a new Master of Orion from Wargaming, where they took and replaced the turn-based combat with real-time, and fans are outraged, while newcomers claim that there is nothing wrong with real-time. Here, the situation is the same: the Heroes series has always been about turn-based combat. What was in Heroes 5 was not a great idea, but simply not a very successful experiment, in my opinion, and I think that if Heroes 5 had a classic turn-based system, it would have many more fans now, although there are problems in it that are not only related to the combat.

What can be calculated in a turn-based system?
For example, the correct order of "waiting," splitting stacks, and positioning to remove retaliations. Heroes 7 is not a good example here, because for me, there was a slight paradigm shift when I, out of habit, split a stack into single units (yes, to remove retaliations, who needs that in the 21st century), and then, bam, for each lost unit, there's a morale penalty for EVERYONE.

In reply to Android

serovoy

3/6/2017 6:37 AM UTC

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Android

IMHO

The most important word. Not everyone thinks in terms of templates and stereotypes, saying that this is for Heroes, and that is not for Heroes. PS: admins, how about a poll?

Ment

3/6/2017 7:31 AM UTC

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and then, bam, for every lost unit, morale decreases for EVERYONE.

And that’s right, overly obvious tactics should be penalized. At the same time, it’s still applicable, and not completely removed, so now the player will think about whether to use it or not.
In general, I understand your opinion, although I don’t agree with it. Regarding the calculation in the turn-based system, for example, I find all these sequences and positioning too simple to enjoy. Although I agree that in the fifth game, with the discarding based on the initiative scale (without it, it’s quite normal), it’s a bit too difficult. Nevertheless, if you have a calculator in your head, everything can be calculated; you just need to put in the effort. And most importantly, as I said, such a system doesn’t take anything away, but instead provides several new tactics and gameplay opportunities, which is worth a lot.

PS: admins, what about a poll?

Do you want to create a poll about which system is better? Please do. Just a small request: choose a topic and section that fits well.

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In reply to flyrix

Rameliya

6/5/2017 9:30 PM UTC

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if you evaluate all parts of the Heroes series, you get:
first - okay
second - masterpiece
third - masterpiece
fourth - failure
fifth - masterpiece
sixth - failure
seventh - failure

I agree with everything! Couldn't have said it better myself!