Posts from UNIT - Creature Balance + Visual Changes

I want to say something about the formatting: there is a limit to the amount of content in one post. In the end, there won't be enough space in the first post. I recommend putting changes from older versions into a file. And the header won't be so bulky and inconvenient.

I know I'm going to express an unpopular (especially on the internet) concept of criticizing various endeavors, and I will probably be "praised" for it. Nevertheless...

Human nature is amazing.
The first three parts of Heroes didn't even pretend to have any balance between the factions. And yet, by selecting maps (templates), a few bans, and a simple set of rules, it was possible to get quite playable rules. For those interested: open the description of the TE for the third game (the mod that "dads" played on heroes.by), imagine all the checkboxes for maximum similarity to SoD, and see the amount of differences with the original in terms of unit characteristics. For example, they reduced the speed of Phoenixes. THAT'S IT! And this is for a game where the imbalance is everywhere: skills, heroes, spells, and artifacts.
Heroes 5 appears, initially much more well-thought-out than all the previous parts. By the second expansion, the situation improves even more in all respects. It would seem that making a TE version would not be a problem at all. But then chaos and hysterical thrashing begin. 100500 microscopic changes in abilities and stats, which are either added, or changed, or disappear. Again, those who wish can dig in the depths of the internet, find a file with logging of changes, and see for themselves.
Any arguments that there is no, and will not be (the time of strategy games has passed, as has the number of people playing them) clearly recorded statistics of games between equal players, in order to make such small changes "for balance" with the necessary accuracy, are met with a friendly cry: "we are cool players, we know everything." And there are only a few dozen of these players, a very serious sample, nothing to say. However, it doesn't matter, maybe they really are cool. But in a game with a template, the role is not played by understanding the essence, but by developing strict combinations. Completely different qualities are needed for analysis and balance. It is not for nothing that another game, baseball, was best described by a mathematician who had never played it professionally. They even made a movie about it.
Further, magic and the skill wheel are being cut up. Some overpowered strategies are removed, and others immediately appear in their place. Logic and common sense die out completely. You don't want spells to be better without magic than at an advanced level? Here you go!
The result: there are so many changes that they create an insurmountable barrier to entry for most of those who want to play. You just studied a 200-page manual, now you have to learn a new one. The initially not so huge number of players is severely reduced on the way to the tournament movement, and only a few reach the finish line. The game is essentially dying. Now, on that ill-fated TE, "three cripples" play (said without the slightest attempt to personally offend anyone who plays).
The approach of "a huge number of balance changes" was wrong, moreover, absolutely suicidal, from the very beginning. Some people understood this immediately, unfortunately, not everyone. The third game was lucky twice: both with the timing of the game's release and with the understanding "activists." The fifth game was unlucky twice.

What was the point of so many words? Just that history teaches us only that it teaches us nothing. In essence, the only active topic on the fifth game forum is the discussion of another "huge number of balance changes." Only now, this is being done not only by people without the appropriate statistics and mathematical tools, but very often even without tournament experience. Why? Perhaps just nostalgia. If so, then good luck, friends-heroists!

I know I'm about to express an unpopular (especially online) concept about criticizing various endeavors, and I'll probably get a lot of flak for it. But still...

Human nature is amazing.
The first three installments of Heroes were nowhere near even attempting any balance between the factions. And yet, by selecting maps (templates), implementing a few bans, and using simple rules, it was possible to create quite playable rulesets. For those interested: open the TE description for the third game (the mod that "veteran" players used on heroes.by), imagine all the checkboxes are selected for maximum similarity to SoD, and see the extent of the differences with the original in terms of unit characteristics. As an example, they reduced the speed of Phoenixes. THAT'S IT! And this is for a game where the imbalance is everywhere: skills, heroes, spells, and artifacts.
Heroes 5 appears, initially much more well-thought-out than all the previous installments. By the second expansion, the situation improves even further in all respects. It would seem that creating a TE version would not be a problem at all. But then chaos and hysterical flailing begin. 100,500 microscopic changes in abilities and stats, which are either added, changed, or disappear. Again, those who wish can delve into the depths of the internet, find a file with logging of changes, and see for themselves.
Any arguments on the topic that there is no, and will not be (the time for strategy games has passed, as has the number of people playing them) a clearly documented statistics of games between equal players, in order to make such small changes "for balance" with the necessary accuracy, are met with a chorus of: "we are cool players, we know everything." And there are only a few dozen of these players, a very serious sample, I must say. However, it doesn't matter, maybe they really are cool. But in a template, understanding the essence doesn't play a role; instead, it's about developing strict combinations. Completely different qualities are needed for analysis and balance. It's no coincidence that another game, baseball, was best described by a mathematician who had never played it professionally. They even made a movie about it.
Further on, the magic system and the skill wheel are being butchered. Some overpowered strategies are removed, and others immediately appear in their place. Logic and common sense die completely. You don't want spells to be better without magic than at their advanced level? Fine, here you go!
The result: there are so many changes that they create an insurmountable barrier to entry for most of those who want to play. You just studied a 200-page manual, now you have to learn a new one. The initially not-so-huge player base is severely reduced on the way to a competitive scene, and only a few reach the finish line. The game essentially dies. Now, on that ill-fated TE, there are figuratively "three cripples" playing (said without any attempt to personally offend anyone who plays).
The approach of "a huge number of balance changes" was wrong, moreover, absolutely suicidal, from the very beginning. Some people understood this immediately, unfortunately, not everyone did. The third game was lucky twice: both with the timing of its release and with the understanding "activists." The fifth game was unlucky twice.

What was the point of so many words? Just that history teaches us only that it teaches us nothing. In essence, the only active topic on the fifth game's forum is the discussion of yet another "huge number of balance changes." Only now, these are being done by people who not only lack the corresponding statistics and mathematical tools, but very often even lack tournament experience. Why? Perhaps just nostalgia. If so, then good luck, fellow Heroes players!

Fireball is absolutely right and essentially correct.

The first three parts of Heroes didn't even come close to having any balance between the factions.

I know I'm about to express an unpopular (especially online) concept about criticizing various endeavors, and I'll probably get flak for it. But still.

Human nature is amazing.
The first three installments of Heroes didn't even come close to claiming any balance between factions. And yet, by selecting maps (templates), implementing a few bans, and using simple methods, it was possible to create quite playable rules. For those interested: open the description of the TE for the third game (the mod that "veteran" players used on heroes.by), imagine all the checkboxes are selected for maximum similarity to SoD, and see the extent of the differences with the original in terms of unit characteristics. For example, they reduced the speed of Phoenixes. THAT'S IT! And this is for a game where there is imbalance everywhere: skills, heroes, spells, and artifacts.
Heroes 5 appears, initially much more well-thought-out than all the previous installments. By the second expansion, the situation improves even more in all respects. It would seem that creating a TE version would not be a problem at all. But then chaos and hysterical flailing begin. 100,500 microscopic changes in abilities and stats, which are either added, changed, or disappear. Again, those who wish can delve into the depths of the internet, find a file with logging of changes, and see for themselves.
Any arguments that there is no, and will not be (the time for strategy games has passed, as has the number of people playing them) clearly documented statistics of games between equal players, in order to make such small changes with the necessary accuracy "for balance," are met with a chorus of: "we are cool players, we know everything." And there are only a few dozen of these players, a very serious sample, I must say. However, it doesn't matter, maybe they really are cool. But in a template game, understanding the essence doesn't play a role; instead, it's about developing strict combinations. Completely different qualities are needed for analysis and balance. It's no coincidence that another game, baseball, was best described by a mathematician who had never played it professionally. They even made a movie about it.
Further on, magic and the skill tree are being butchered. Some overpowered strategies are removed, and others immediately appear in their place. Logic and common sense die completely. You don't want spells to be better without magic than at an advanced level? Fine, here you go!
The result: there are so many changes that they create an insurmountable barrier to entry for most of those who want to play. You just studied a 200-page manual, now you have to learn a new one. The initially not-so-huge player base is severely reduced on the way to a competitive scene, and only a few reach the finish line. The game essentially dies. Now, on that ill-fated TE, there are figuratively "three cripples" playing (said without any attempt to personally offend anyone who plays).
The approach of "a huge number of balance changes" was wrong, moreover, absolutely suicidal, from the very beginning. Some people understood this immediately, unfortunately, not everyone did. The third game was lucky twice: both with the timing of its release and with the understanding "activists." The fifth game was unlucky twice.

What was the point of so many words? To the fact that history teaches us only that it teaches us nothing. In essence, the only active topic on the fifth game's forum is the discussion of yet another "huge number of balance changes." Only now, it's being done by people who not only lack the corresponding statistics and mathematical tools but often even lack tournament experience. Why? Perhaps just nostalgia. If so, then good luck, fellow Heroes players!

Frozensoull, any news? Are you still working on the balance?

Work is underway, mainly at the stage of collecting feedback and ideas, for now.
If you have any suggestions, I'm at your service.

P.S. I would like to hear opinions about the visual aspect of the mod, as it also plays a significant role in the game. For some reason, no one has commented on it yet, unlike the balance.

Visuals are certainly important, but balance is far more crucial!

Frozensoull, are you still working on the mod?