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Posts from Harmony - Troop Symmetry

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In reply to Nargott
#621
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Nargott
All the same principles apply when using resurrection. It doesn't reduce losses to 0, but only halves them. That is, large losses still remain large.
Essentially, resurrection provides the opportunity to defeat stronger neutral creatures earlier with the same losses. For example, defeating 100 hypothetical Hydras without resurrection may be equivalent in terms of losses to defeating 120 hypothetical Hydras with resurrection.
In theory, it might work somehow, but increasing the attack power will shift the "balance of power" in its favor.
Nargott

Plus, even if we accept this point of view, developing in the Castle is already a deliberately chosen strategy, so why should it fit all decisions?
It shouldn't be the only advantageous option (this is what I'm writing about).
Nargott

In the first month, the middle, and sometimes even the end of the game is often determined. The obvious endgame is when everything is built, and there is nowhere else to develop, and you simply accumulate troops (the most tedious part).
So, from these words, it turns out that with this style of play, things like obtaining artifacts, leveling up the hero (fully developed), and moving around the map (at least when playing against more than one opponent) are no longer noticeable? Are these things done "on autopilot"? Is only the factor of building up the Castle important?
(And, apparently, what I listed results from the ease of clearing the map. And the tactics of moving around it disappear.)
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#622
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Regarding the map's difficulty. There's a mod like that – TE, where the guard towers are simply enormous (utopias are resting), and the typical game duration is 4-6 weeks. What can we say about maps with ordinary guard towers, where you can grab relics almost in the first weeks.

Added 2 minutes ago
kiko
In theory, it might work somehow, but increasing the penetration will shift the "balance" in its favor.
Any strong perk in one place or another shifts the "balance" in favor of those strategies where it works best. I don't see any problem here; it's just the way it is, and when choosing a perk, the player also chooses a strategy. SA is definitely not something you see in every game.

Essentially, you're saying that you personally don't like the emphasis on the super-perk's effect on penetration because such a perk probably doesn't fit your play style very well. But no one is forcing you to take it. If I constantly level up warriors, I won't demand that unnecessary skills for me, such as wizardry, chaos, or summoning, be removed from the game. Or, for example, SA for mages. What if my play style already involves getting a large number of spells, so I won't get much benefit from learning all of them (I already have a lot). Should SA be replaced for mages?

Regarding hero development, I don't know what "fully developed" means, but levels 16-20 already allow you to fully implement any necessary tactic (as seen in RTA). The rest is just an optional addition, a game of accumulation (you can take more, but there's not much point in it).
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In reply to Nargott
#623
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Nargott

Essentially, you're saying that you personally don't like the focus of a super-perk on dealing damage, because such a perk probably doesn't fit your play style very well. But no one is forcing you to take it.
No.
I'm not against any play style (and I wouldn't say I prefer any specific one), but when playing, I try to choose the most effective option. And I don't want the "most effective" option to always be the same.

Okay, I've basically already stated my opinion and provided arguments.
The choice is up to the mod author.
#624
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I don't want this "efficient" one to always be the same.
He's already "not the same." Although... it depends on who you ask.
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#625
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Actually, I specifically mentioned that leveling up in Single-player Adventure (SA) is a rather rare occurrence, not something that happens "constantly." Unless you're leveling up in SA in your own unique way, of course.
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In reply to Nargott
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#626
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In reality, the game usually ends much earlier than the Super Unit (SU) appears, due to the requirements for obtaining it – even if you manage to follow the hero upgrade path that leads to the coveted SU, you can get it at level 24, and if even the random number generator decides to make things difficult, 30 levels might not be enough. Nargott partially solved this problem – now it only takes about 8 levels, if I calculated correctly, but you need a pendant for that. If the requirements for obtaining the SU are reduced (for example, by reducing the number of required skills), then, given the relative ease of obtaining it, everyone will definitely choose this path. Currently, I am faced with a choice between two options: 1) People will have an enhanced guardian angel as their SU. 2) Leave the Unrelenting Force as the SU for people (here, you can apply a mod from the neighboring topic for a second strike).
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
In reply to Nargott
#627
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Nargott
Actually, I specifically stated that leveling up a creature is a rather rare occurrence, not a "constant and repetitive" one. Unless you make leveling up a creature your own style.
I don't know how to understand this...
What does "you stated" mean?
Did you set some technical conditions that it won't be possible to level it up on ~95% of the maps?
If you make it that effective, why wouldn't they level it up?
What do I have to do with it?

Added 2 minutes ago
SRD
In reality, the game usually ends much earlier than the Super Unit appears, due to the requirements for obtaining it.
I haven't seen any wheels...
So, what are we talking about? About something that doesn't exist?

Added 2 minutes ago
SRD

If the requirements for obtaining a Super Unit are reduced (for example, by reducing the number of required skills), then, given the relative ease of obtaining it, everyone will definitely choose this path.
It depends on how it's done.
To put it bluntly: why would a Necromancer need a Super Unit against a Necromancer?
The Super Unit may be less effective in certain situations.

Added 9 minutes ago
SRD

Right now, I'm choosing between two options:
1) Humans will have an enhanced Guardian Angel as their Super Unit.
2) Leave the Unrelenting Force as the Human Super Unit (you can apply the mod from the neighboring topic for a second strike here).
Can we give all units of the Human race the "Child of Light" ability when they obtain their Super Unit?
(of course, if it fits into the balance :))

Added 27 minutes ago
P.S.
Give double strike to level 7? How is that done?
Humans have +25% damage on retaliation. A total of +25%. What will happen if you add another +100% on attack?
In reply to kiko
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#628
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kiko

Well, I didn't see any wheels...
So, what are we talking about? Something that doesn't exist?
Just because someone hasn't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist – there's something on the first page (an old version, but it's similar to the final one).
kiko

People get +25% damage on a counterattack. Just +25%. What happens if you add another +100% to the attack?
But what about the fact that "True Luck" gives +100% to both attack and counterattack? "Absolute Protection" works similarly – only the attack is affected here, and the counterattack isn't enhanced. Besides, why consider the bonus from a counterattack – it's completely unrelated to the Skill Upgrade (SU) – for example, Leoric has a bonus from Avenger, etc.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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#629
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Does "true luck" give 100% to both attack and counter-attack?
Actually, it doesn't, although the comment is generally relevant.
 

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In reply to Ment
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#630
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Ah, yes, I made a mistake – we also have the Luck skill itself. Let's say it gives a 30% bonus to damage (in 3 out of 10 cases, the damage will be doubled, meaning 1300% damage over 10 hits. Dividing by the number of hits (10) gives us 130%, which is a 30% bonus). With True Luck, all attacks are successful, but 3 out of 10 would be successful even without True Luck, meaning the bonus from True Luck for Elves is 70%.
And don't forget that it also affects counterattacks.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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#631
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That's also incorrect. Essentially, we have a 30 to 50% bonus from luck (there can be artifacts that are easy to obtain, and there isn't much else useful to put in their slot). Plus, there's elven luck (damage from successful attacks * 1.25). That is, the modifiers are as follows: Without Skill and artifacts: 1.375 With artifacts but without Skill: 1.625 With Skill: 2.25 The increase in average damage is 63.6% and 38.5%, respectively (because percentages should be calculated not from the base damage, but taking into account all bonuses, minus the Skill). An additional advantage of Skill, besides counterattacks, is the stabilization of probability. Luck without Skill does not have enough predictability, which is not taken into account in the value of the average damage, but reduces its value.
 

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In reply to Ment
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#632
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Ment
Luck without Spellpower doesn't have enough predictability, which isn't taken into account in the average damage value, but it reduces its value.
It's effective in dealing damage, but not in the final stage. Because unpredictability works both ways, it's harder to defend against luck.
Also, the value of luck is significantly increased if the opponent is stronger, and decreased in the opposite case.

But overall, the bonus from the Elven Spellpower is +40-60%, and even less, considering the racial bonus.
In a battle against only sworn enemies and with 1 city, the damage increase from Spellpower is +175% (125% + 50%), without Spellpower it's +87.5%, so the difference is 2.75/1.875 = 1.47. With artifacts that give +2 luck (up to +5), it's already 1.29.

In short, the effectiveness of Elven Spellpower can be considered to be around 150% damage (130-160).
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In reply to Ment
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#633
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Ment
That's also incorrect. Essentially, we have a 30 to 50% bonus from luck (there can be artifacts that are easy to obtain, and you can't really put anything else useful in their slot). Plus, there's Elven Luck (damage from successful attacks * 1.25).
So, the modifiers are:
Without Luck and artifacts: 1.375
With artifacts but without Luck: 1.625
With Luck: 2.25
The increase in average damage is 63.6% and 38.5%, respectively (because percentages should be calculated not from the base damage, but taking into account all bonuses, minus Luck).
An additional advantage of Luck, besides counterattacks, is the stabilization of probability. Luck without the skill doesn't have enough predictability, which is not taken into account in the value of the average damage, but it reduces its value.
It's inappropriate to consider artifacts - artifacts can be with anyone, or they may not be - we are looking at the bare skills.
It's also inappropriate to consider Elven Luck with its additional 25% bonus - this is a bonus from a completely different skill, not from a specific Luck skill - in the skill tree on the first page, it is clear that Elven Luck is present in all the Luck skills.

Added 1 minute ago
in general, we probably need to separate the tripled damage for Watchful Presence from Human Luck if we give Double Strike
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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#634
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It's inappropriate to consider artifacts – anyone can have them, or they might not have them at all – we're looking at raw skills.
It is appropriate, precisely because they can be present, and with a high probability.
The opponent's artifacts ("anyone") don't affect the situation at all. Although, I'll take that back – there might be an artifact that gives a bonus to luck. But I'd rate the probability as low, unless we're playing against a Necromancer and need to consider that they might try to assemble a class set.
Elven Luck with its additional 25% bonus should also be disregarded – this is a bonus from a completely different skill, not from a specific skill unit – the skill tree on the first page shows that Elven Luck is present in the entire Luck line.
Elven Luck must be taken into account because it increases the value of luck as a whole (albeit not by much).
 

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In reply to SRD
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#635
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SRD
It's inappropriate to consider artifacts – anyone can have them, or they might not have them at all; we're looking at the raw skills.
Elven Luck with its additional 25% bonus should also be disregarded – it's a bonus from a completely different skill, not from a specific skill. In the skill tree on the first page, you can see that Elven Luck is present in all the Luck skills.
The point is that artifacts for Luck will most likely exist (and there will be more of them than for Unluck, especially compared to neutral units). It's impossible to ignore the fact that they stop being relevant.

Elven Luck is just as much a requirement for the skill as the Luck skill itself (in the standard skill tree and in yours). Therefore, it cannot be ignored. And the racial skill (of the Avenger) also cannot be ignored, especially in the endgame.

It's important to understand right away what we are evaluating: a build with a skill (and then we need to consider the skill and its requirements together, as a whole), or the contribution of the skill itself (and then we need to consider the skill in comparison with exactly the same situation, but without the skill, which means with all the requirements).
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