Skip to content

Posts from Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments.

No ratings yet — be the first to rate!
In reply to wowa
User Avatar
#1215
Auto-translated
wowa
it's clear that the respawn isn't red's, the question is whether red had passed through there before or not? moreover, the latter option is unlikely to occur not only to a novice but also to an experienced player who has only practiced on xl maps, for example — where people tend to ignore (un)blocked passage guards... and even on an SM map, where the general guard zone is shared by two players)) i.e. you need specific Jebus experience, where you have to fight the guard zone for neutral respawns, and buggy Jebus experience at that))) Vok, for instance, has extensive experience in template building, knows all sorts of road network bugs, so the situation is obvious to him, but can he put himself in the shoes of an average player? personally, in the heat of a game and due to ignorance, it simply wouldn't have occurred to me that they might not have run through here before :confused: i.e. I wouldn't have guessed or suspected myself of a possible violation, but would have simply thought exactly what Dirty said! :) but now I've been warned, and I'll try not to do this in the future, regardless of the referee's authoritative opinion)))
If you reason that way, the rule against passing by a moved guard would have to be abolished entirely. "What if it was the opponent who broke through and then left?" And indeed — he could have rolled Dimension Door and Town Portal scrolls on turn 111, upgraded harpies, jumped to your guard zone, placed the harpies in an isolated tile, and thus killed a stack of gray bears, then Town Portal'd back home.

That's why a formal approach is used: you passed where you shouldn't have => you're guilty.

Exceptions can be made in some cases, when the situation is such that it's not easy to suspect something amiss. But here the reasons for suspicion were quite substantial. A bugged passage through a mine is a well-known thing; you don't need template-building experience or buggy Jebus experience for that. And a pile of wood on the road strongly suggests that the opponent most likely wasn't here.
#1216
Auto-translated
jump to your game object, place harpies in an isolated cell, and kill a lot of gray bears that way, then teleport home.
Couldn't do it without using the game master mode, unfortunately.
648050691
In reply to zoog
User Avatar
#1217
Auto-translated
zoog
Couldn't resist mapmaking for Heroes 5, unfortunately.
But he played HotA, where it's possible.
In reply to Wicc
User Avatar
#1218
Auto-translated
Wicc
In some cases, exceptions can be made when the situation makes it difficult to suspect something is amiss. But here, the grounds for suspicion were quite substantial.

in favor of going through:
• there is a path
• there is no guard, not a single one, not even a moved one
• there is no opponent in the center, at all! considering that he ran from his spawn point, it's more logical to assume that he went to someone else's spawn point rather than returning for loot – it's more profitable to grab new resources than to scavenge leftovers.

against:
• there's a mine, which one might not even think about, as if it's a bug rather than something intentional – card players might have a keen eye for such objects, but for players, this usually sticks in their memory in the context of passages between corner spawn points, not center-corner! Also, the road is confusing; in bug passages between corners, there usually isn't a road in half the cases.

nowhere:
• a group that the player definitely won't waste moves on if they can fly past – especially at this stage of the game.

So, the score is 3:1 (or even 0 for an inexperienced player) in favor of "going through."

In reality, two buggy elements coincided here – the passage and the road network, so it's not about being tilted, but simply about the usual game tension under the pressure of the timer, which can make you not think clearly... and even in a calm environment, it's somehow... well, I'm running FOR the opponent – that's my approach – and here's a passage, so naturally, I assume it's clear, and I simply don't pay attention to the mine.
If we reason like this, then the rule prohibiting passing by a moved guard will have to be completely abolished.
But where is the moved guard here, and is there even one anywhere else? That's not at all obvious
"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny
In reply to Wicc
User Avatar
#1219
Auto-translated
Wicc
In my opinion, the screenshot clearly shows that this is not a red respawn point. A pile of logs on the road, pushing aside mountains of ore (there are no herbal obstacles along the passage) – all signs indicate a bugged passage to a corner respawn point.

I might still allow for some leniency towards a newbie if they play the innocent act well, but if there's even a minimally experienced player, then it’s a complete fail.

in Vova's picture, is this zone 4 or not? If yes, then this isn't a bugged passage, but rather a lack of guards at the passage (and I would probably pass through it if I didn't see any guards while moving along)
In reply to Wicc
User Avatar
#1220
Auto-translated
Wicc
In my opinion, the screenshot clearly shows that this is not a red spawn point. A pile of logs on the road, with mountains of mines (there are no grassy obstacles along the passage) – all signs of a bugged passage to a corner spawn point.

I can still allow for the possibility of leniency towards a newbie if they play the innocent, but if there is even a minimally experienced player, then this is a complete failure.

+1, according to the rules for bugged passages, this definitely gives the advantage to blue. The other question is that the rules are incorrect because they contradict common sense. After all, to get to the grassy spawn point on the right, the player will be forced to explore the entire desert and find that unfortunate GO (gold object), if it even exists :) so, in essence, this spawn point will not be used, which is not good.

Added 10 minutes later
In general, it's easy here: ask your opponent, if you're not sure, save immediately, and ask the judges. Let them rack their brains :D


In reply to KobRa_RR
User Avatar
#1221
Auto-translated
KobRa_RR
+1, by the rules of the bugged passage this is unambiguously a Town Portal for blue.
Well, where does it say that this is a bugged passage? In my opinion, this is a main passage, but without a guard. Apparently, the proximity of the mine "ate" it.
KobRa_RR
Actually, it's an easy game: you ask your opponent; if you're not sure, you save immediately and ask the judges. Let them scratch their heads :D
This is the most correct decision, but in this example, it won't occur to everyone that the guard didn't spawn at all.

The most logical scenario from the screenshot. Red, from the Dungeon, cast Dimension Door/flew towards the neutral grassy respawn, escaping from blue, broke the guard and flew further on wings/fly, so as not to spend moves on picking up a pile of wood. Another possible scenario is that red found a КЗ there, broke the guard for experience, or just to waste extra moves, and then cast Town Portal home. It's easy to talk about bugs, etc., but during a game it's hard to account for the possibility that the generator simply didn't provide a guard. Such a thing is possible in 1 out of 100 cases, IMHO. Perhaps I don't have a lot of experience playing Jebus Cross; let the experts chime in on how often respawns are provided without a guard?
In reply to Dirty_Player
User Avatar
#1222
Auto-translated
Dirty_Player
This is possible in 1 out of 100 cases, IMHO. Perhaps I don't have much experience with Jebus Cross, let the experts tell me how often respawns are dealt without GO?

Generally without GO - indeed 1 in 100, or maybe even less. But without GO on the road (which is more important) - more often, I'd say about 1 in 20-30 maybe...
http://ru.twitch.tv/lizard_wt
#1223
Auto-translated
In my opinion, everything is clear: if a player doesn't have formal proof but is confident, let them bet on it, or save the game if the opponent doesn't provide any information.
648050691
In reply to zoog
User Avatar
#1224
Auto-translated
I suggest simply allowing players to run to corner respawns without breaking the Town Gate. Keep the need to break the Town Gate only for exiting the starting respawn.
#1225
Auto-translated
Changing the rules is bad; then tracking these changes and retraining hundreds of players – plus foreigners – plus scatterbrains like me (I still don't remember how many restarts I had in a season) – let a newbie fail once in a thousand times... but think of all the experience they'll gain!
648050691
User Avatar
#1226
Auto-translated
I request that the AK consider lifting the ban on my participation in tournaments.
Всё будет хорошо!!! Только неизвестно когда... НО ОБЯЗАТЕЛЬНО БУДЕТ!!!
Но!...
Слушай всех, прислушивайся к немногим, решай сам...

In reply to Vigo
User Avatar
#1227
Auto-translated
Vigo
I request that the AC consider lifting the ban on my participation in tournaments.

They don't seem to be in a hurry to reinstate you, probably because they're afraid Stinger will play for you.


User Avatar
#1228
Auto-translated
Stinger has so many things going on, both personally and professionally, and he's playing so many games, that even if I were to think about asking him to do something like that, I'd be politely turned down because he simply doesn't have the time for it.
Всё будет хорошо!!! Только неизвестно когда... НО ОБЯЗАТЕЛЬНО БУДЕТ!!!
Но!...
Слушай всех, прислушивайся к немногим, решай сам...

User Avatar
#1229
Auto-translated
Please, could the AK provide a more detailed explanation of what is meant by developing up to a block:
The restart is initiated at the player's discretion, who owns the block, if it is impossible to bypass the block that cuts off the castle from the main part of the starting zone, leaving no possibility of development up to the block.
Since this point has been discussed 100 times, there have been no changes, but controversial situations continue to arise.
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWlnXU5R5RLCMuWzIpBc65Q

Statistics

Welcome our newest member: wayal