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2) Gentlemen, the forum is a place where it's easy to slander someone. But since there are more supporters of the USSR, it's difficult for me, like Ganymede in another thread, to fight with everyone. Regarding my opponent, I was just venting, and I admit it. Alex, don't take it personally.
3) Now I will quickly form my opinion about the USSR and the people who defend it, and it only shows my opinion/attitude and does not claim to be the truth. Yes, regarding communism, you are right, socialism is a transitional stage, but they called communists communists, and the term simply stuck, and the fact that the regime can be called a more complex construct does not change the facts.
And now my opinion:
1) The USSR was one of the terrible totalitarian countries, which I sometimes equate with Germany. Communist terror before Stalin, then Stalin's repressions, and then smaller-scale terror until the collapse of the USSR.
2) There was no freedom of speech, press, or personality in the USSR. I equate such an order with slavery.
3) Communism is the most terrible "religion" that I equate with Satanism, Nazism (also a kind of "religion"). This "religion" is destructive by its very nature, but skillfully uses gullible minds for the benefit of the authorities.
4) Finally, I do not recognize the USSR as a country, because after the collapse it turned out that there is almost nothing in common between the countries.
This is my position, gentlemen, and I will not prove anything to the supporters of the regime that I hate, because this topic is only for opinions and facts, right?
And I ask you, gentlemen, not to take everything to heart, there are still many topics where we will have different views :)
Silvanis
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I agree with Berserk on 70% of his points :) - I don't deny that the USSR was a country (although if we introduce a certain criterion based, say, on cultural or national unity, then, of course, the USSR cannot be called a country), and I slightly disagree with his views on communism as a religion: firstly, I still refuse to call communism a religion (religion, in my opinion, includes a certain mandatory element of mysticism; communism is simply a belief). Secondly... this belief is not destructive - or rather, not completely destructive, since it preaches the idea that "the end justifies the means" (the higher good at the cost of the death of thousands from the upper classes - the idea of world revolution was also shared by Marx himself) - but as an ideological organization, it has the characteristics of a destructive cult (for those who are not aware - a destructive cult differs from an ordinary one in that it actively introduces depersonalization and suppresses the human personality; in ordinary cults, its transformation is assumed - the personality is considered a value, but the existence of certain ideals that can ennoble the personality is also recognized)
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"... - Чжуан-цзы Сильванис
Isn't it easy to check my profile? Even if having a female avatar isn't enough to determine my gender, my gender is clearly stated there. The phrase "I didn't understand" was used idiomatically, similar to "I got it, I'm not stupid," which also doesn't change depending on the speaker's gender. It's a shame I'm not a man, though, right? Then I could be sent to the Matrix, to China, or somewhere else entirely.:smile08: What a beautiful discussion, Demosthenes is smoking in the hallway, as they say.
Берсерк
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The interface isn't familiar, and I have the images turned off, dear Slonysh. If you were a man, I could talk to you as equals, but as it is, "I need to learn how to talk to girls" :) Your post is venomous and full of sarcasm, which is quite unpleasant. Referring to China is also a figurative expression, like "take a look at how things are there." Referring to The Matrix is a symbolic example and doesn't carry any offense. But as for the "***," dear lady, you should know that I don't tolerate "***" any more than I tolerate communism.
Secondly... this belief is not destructive - or rather, not entirely destructive, as it preaches the idea that "the end justifies the means" (the higher good at the cost of the death of thousands from the upper classes - an idea of world revolution that Marx himself shared) - but as an ideological organization, it has the character of a destructive cult (for those who are not aware - a destructive cult differs from an ordinary one in that it actively introduces depersonalization and suppresses the human personality; in ordinary cults, its transformation is assumed - the personality is considered a value, but the existence of certain ideals that can ennoble the personality is also recognized).
Listen, how much more can we talk about things you haven't seen? Suppression of personality? And now, apparently, conditions are being created for its development? Culture must be at its peak? In the once "most literate country," they have already forgotten how to write in their native language, let alone read. By the way, about the personalities of the Soviet period: think about it, in those days, outstanding scientists, artists, writers, etc. received apartments in a prestigious high-rise building on Krasnaya Presnya (well, the very one in which, in "Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears," the heroines portrayed themselves as professors' daughters... an impressive Tower). Who can afford an apartment there now - you can guess. Certainly not cultural figures (unless they are such "luminaries of talent" as Kirkorov). By the way, people like to talk about the rigid equalization at the level of official ideology... did you watch the film "Spring" with Orlova? A film from Stalin's time. And it clearly shows that outstanding scientists live in two-story (!) apartments and have housekeepers - in other words, servants. And everyone knew that self-made people could achieve this. This was openly promoted.
Added 21 minutes ago Berserk;85694
If you were a man, I could talk to you as equals, but since you're not, "I should learn how to talk to girls" :)
And you try to learn to look at people as equals, regardless of gender. That is, do not introduce offensive phrases of a personal nature into the discussion. I didn't initially send you anywhere or say that I feel sorry for you that "there are people who like to be slaves to a totalitarian order, who are willing to wear rose-colored glasses, watch what they are shown, and do what they are told"... These are personal attacks. Don't talk to me "as equals" like that.Berserk;85694
Your post is poisonous and full of sarcasm, quite unpleasant.
Your post, to which I was responding, also did not bring me pleasure.Berserk;85694
And by the way, dear lady, you should know that I don't tolerate *** as much as I don't tolerate communism.
For your information, I typed three asterisks, and nothing more. Feel free to substitute any word, starting with "fig," with your own imagination. Whether it was worth writing about what you can't stand is up to you. I personally find all this off-topic discussion depressing.
Silvanis
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I didn't say a word about the current situation.
But since you asked, the cultural situation now is terrible; it wasn't even like this in pre-Soviet times (take, for example, the use of profanity as the norm in speech). And everyone's minds (and mine, most likely too:() are so muddled that God forbid; but the state isn't deliberately muddled them – at least, not to that extent. And if you don't agree, just ask those who lived in Soviet times how it was with ideology. I personally am just horrified.
Yes, there are unworthy people at the top now; but were the Soviet heroes really that great? In the humanities, scientists were promoted not for their achievements, but for fulfilling party orders (I know this for sure, as I have very close and direct ties to scientific circles); the situation with art was no better – for example, my grandfather, a painter, was forced to emigrate. In addition, as I said, living conditions have improved significantly since then – at least we have an abundance of diverse and delicious food, and we don't have to stand in lines for hours to get it!
"Vesna" was filmed in 1947, and during the war and the "immediately post-war" years, ideological control was significantly weakened; yes, by the way, Stalin also began to revive many things that were the norm before the revolution in the 1930s.
And just so no one gets the wrong idea – right now, our family's total income is about $700-800 per month for 5 people + my scholarship; any Muscovite knows how little that is in our city.
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"... - Чжуан-цзы Сильванис
I try to promise myself that this post will be my last in this thread... although I don't really believe it myself:smile04: Silvanis;85701
And if you don't agree, just ask those who lived in Soviet times how things were with ideology.
So, I myself lived through that. I won't ask myself, that sounds like schizophrenia. :)
AlexeyPank
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Let's clearly define what we are comparing the USSR to. If we compare it to modern Erephia, then the USSR is simply paradise. Indeed, paradise in the Christian sense – a place where you can do nothing and still have everything you need. If we compare it to the USA, then these are fundamentally incomparable things. For example, in the USA, the economy is geared towards profit, while in the USSR, it was geared towards satisfying social needs. Comparing length to temperature is like asking which is greater; you decide.
Throughout history, there have always been people who can adapt to the system. Therefore, those who were bureaucrats before are now called officials or oligarchs. People haven't gone anywhere; they've just become more brazen and cynical.
For example, consider the statistics about modern Russia. 80% of financial capital is concentrated in Moscow. 12% is in St. Petersburg. And the rest is spread throughout the country. Moscow is one of the most expensive cities in the world, located in one of the poorest countries. In the USSR, such imbalances did not exist and could not have existed. Local bureaucrats knew how to get what was needed from Moscow.
Regarding zombification and total control. Did you know that in Russia, there is a law on extremism that allows any violation, from the point of view of an official, to be punished? If I say that officials are thieves, that is extremism. If I say that I am against Putin, that is incitement to his overthrow. And try to find out the truth about what happened in 1991 or 1993 now. Nothing has changed.
But here's the paradox. In the USSR, few people nostalgically remembered the Tsarist era. And the younger generation was generally interested in something else. But now, everyone remembers the Soviet Union. Moreover, most of them are young people. That's how it is.
No one forced Ukraine to join the Union, and neither did many other republics. There were undeniable drawbacks to this "communal living," but we were a united state that was respected. The collapse of the Union primarily benefits those who prefer to be "independent" rulers and don't want to share their wealth. It's easier to survive as a large family, and now, instead of the Union, we have a bunch of weak states with a ruined economy. I am more than sure that cultured people, who treat each other with tolerance, can find compromises for cooperation. The collapse of the USSR shows that before the Union, we simply "weren't ready" for it. And the right of republics to secede from the USSR was enshrined in the constitution.
Sorry for butting in, but... Alex, are you Ukrainian? If so, I'm shocked at the kind of teachers you had. Because, to your knowledge, Ukraine was indeed "forced" to join. We were beginning to form a state, we were embarking on a long journey upwards, and if a certain party hadn't rushed to our neighbors, there wouldn't be a weak economy and chaos in power now... probably. And there wouldn't be Kruty, and there wouldn't be hundreds of thousands of repressed people, and there wouldn't be hundreds of poets fleeing abroad, and there wouldn't be the absurdity when, during the war, a poet's poem is played on the radio, and then, for THAT SAME poem, they are sent to labor camps... But, in general, the idea was not bad... but, like everything in the former empire, it was done "the wrong way." Yes, there were many advantages, the development of art, for example... But, damn it, read the memoirs of writers of those years!!! When books lay on the shelves for ten years or more, and were published censored to death!!! And good books! The Strugatsky brothers... And the USSR collapsed precisely because of TOO rigid frameworks. And insane diversity. Now it has collapsed, and what do we see??? European countries, including my homeland and Russia, are gradually moving towards EUROPE and the BIG WORLD, and who knows, maybe they will change it for the better... separately. But we still have "the Soviet mentality" lingering, and even WORSE — the same people are at the helm, and even worse:( but that's not the point. And now, let's take all these "-stan" countries (I apologize if I offended anyone, everything said here is the IMHO of a new generation)... and what do we see??? D-E-G-R-A-D-A-T-I-O-N. And the worst of the Soviet era, but tenfold more clearly.
Once again, this is my IMHO, and I do not claim to be any kind of absolute truth. And the USSR collapsed because it was time for it to change, but it couldn't. And I DON'T WANT the USSR precisely because the first 10-25 years will be what it was in the first 10-25 years of the USSR. DO YOU NEED IT? I don't.
And one more thing, everything said above is my IMHO.
"Мы не герои. Мы сильны. Мы упрямы. Мы стараемся соблюдать условия контракта. Но мы не умираем за проигравших." Костоправ
"Мы не поклонники честной игры, если ее можно избежать. Девиз Отряда – максимальная эффективность при минимальном риске." Костоправ
Silvanis
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Let's not talk about "heaven in the Christian sense" if we don't understand anything about it... Christians don't have a clear idea of heaven (unlike Muslims), but this is just a minor point in the fight against what is essentially off-topic, anti-Christian propaganda.
Let's look at the facts instead. Our financial situation is better than in the last years of the USSR – the overall standard of living is higher, and there is significant economic growth.
Currently, very few cases are being prosecuted under the law on extremism; most of them involve (usually, those who claim to be "suffering" from this ban are openly provoking the authorities, i.e., simply provoking the government); in Soviet times, millions were repressed for political reasons. Both statistics and the memories of former prisoners tell us that there were several times more political prisoners (and let's not forget all the purges in the government and the repression in science). Now, I can freely criticize Putin in the press, on television (watch the news on Ren-TV if you need more criticism of the current regime), on forums, and even in the street; this was not allowed in Soviet times.
The phrase "bureaucrats in the regions knew how to get what they needed from Moscow" really bothered me. So, you think that resources should be pumped out of Moscow, right? This is a very egocentric and selfish position; it's the view of some disgruntled provincial: "They live well in Moscow, let's give them a hard time, take everything away from them, and divide it!" I would be very happy if you told me that I am wrong...
In Soviet times, there were many people who did not like the new regime – read, for example, Ilf and Petrov's notebook, remember people like Bulgakov. In Soviet times, they were not given a voice; they were shot and sent to labor camps, but now they can do anything – even occupy the president's office...
But, of course, I don't think that modern Russia is a very good place. In my opinion, it is a dying country that is rapidly losing its cultural heritage, and only a miracle can save it...
You have interesting views, Alexei. It's such a mix of Soviet and current Western propaganda...
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"... - Чжуан-цзы Сильванис
Берсерк
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Try to learn to treat people as equals, regardless of gender.
I view representatives of your gender as something superior, and therefore I am more restrained in arguments and only that. Besides, you are easier to offend, which I would not want.
That is, do not introduce offensive phrases of a personal nature into the discussion.
Rose-colored glasses and total order slaves are phrases that have nothing to do with personality, AND YET. Why don't you like the truth? Most historians recognize the regime as totalitarian. There are hundreds of facts that caused irreparable damage, and you and Alexei talk about Paradise. These are rose-colored glasses. And don't forget about the USSR before
Most historians recognize the regime as totalitarian. There are hundreds of facts demonstrating irreparable damage, and you and Alexey are talking about paradise. That's rose-tinted glasses. And don't forget about the USSR before the 60s; otherwise, people only remember the last years when the USSR was already falling apart before our eyes, and order was collapsing.
Read some Soviet historians and the facts they present about Tsarist Russia. Do you really doubt that any state that destroyed its "predecessor" would try to prove that before it, there was an Empire of Evil? The USSR was not an ideal state, but now a lot of nonsense is written about it. And as for the repressions, yes, there were bad things, who argues, but now no one remembers Bloody Sunday or Khodynka... and if they do, it turns out that the poor, saintly Tsar was not to blame for anything; he was misled, and so on... No, I don't want a return to the USSR at all; it's so unrealistic that I never even thought about it. And I know about its shortcomings, but it irritates me when, based on the words of today's "saviors and benefactors," people start fantasizing about the horrors of the totalitarian regime. Here's an interesting fact: my grandmother was a perfectly loyal citizen in the USSR. Not fanatically, but loyal. During perestroika, she suddenly bought icons, put on a cross around her neck (note that when my father was born, her mother baptized her in secret, against her will - that is, my grandmother was against baptism), and began to say that she always knew what horrors Stalin committed, that he was a monster and a villain! A few years passed, and my grandmother saw her and her grandfather's pension, tasted the delights of medicine "for the poor" (before, the district clinic was medicine for everyone, and now, you must agree, it's for the poor, because no good specialist will go to work there for such a salary, and that's why mostly not the best people work there), calculated the cost of utilities, admired the rise in prices... and said: "But Stalin lowered prices... and we ate black caviar every holiday back then..." Oh well, what do we, who are so knowledgeable, care about the opinion of an old woman? She doesn't understand anything about democracy.
AlexeyPank
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Regarding Moscow, I don't understand. So, you think that when 80% of the financial capital is concentrated in one city, that's normal? And the people in the regions are ungrateful scoundrels who not only want to live a decent life but also dare to call a thief a thief? Do you know that my salary is twice the average? And the salaries of my university professors are below average. Where do these average figures come from then? It's like this saying: "I ate two chickens, and you ate none. But on average, we ate one chicken each." I will keep criticizing Moscow until there is a fair redistribution. With my salary, I can't even afford rent, let alone buy an apartment. And I don't think that the financial situation in the regions has improved compared to the USSR. It's easy to talk about the growth of prosperity while sitting in Moscow.
I can criticize the USSR, but there are plenty of people doing that without me. It's just a pity that they don't provide a SINGLE statistic, only emotions. I can prove anything with emotions. But do you know that in Stalin's camps, only 8-20% were political prisoners, the rest were criminals? And of these political prisoners, most were imprisoned for crimes, such as terrorism or sabotage. All those "artists" who talk about how they were oppressed in the USSR weren't ashamed to receive awards from the Soviet government and weren't ashamed to promote the Soviet system. Look at Rostropovich, a laureate of the Lenin and Stalin Prizes, who supported the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. Why didn't he refuse the prize in solidarity with Pasternak and Solzhenitsyn during the Soviet era?
I hate hypocrites!
Where did you get those numbers? That's clearly a poor source. :) With the same certainty, I can say that 80% of the people (and a historian told me this!) were innocent! See, dear Alexey, data is a tricky thing, but my relatives (several of them) became victims of repression – and that's a fact. :( But I understood the main point of the topic: what is the way out of the current situation, and what kind of system is needed for this, right?
Sage
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Personally, what surprises me in this entire discussion is the fact that it mostly examines how poets, writers, officials, and the like lived. For some reason, few people speak (especially those criticizing the USSR) about how ordinary workers lived, how things stood in heavy industry and the defense sector, or ultimately, how people lived in villages and rural settlements. Everywhere I travel now, there is collapse, ruin, shells of factories, pig farms, cowsheds, and abandoned fields. People in the villages aren't living; they are surviving with practically no money on hand. Who is the primary breadwinner in a village family now? The pensioners, because the kolkhozes pay nothing, and not everyone can find work in the cities. You might say—let them engage in farming. But that requires starting capital, and with 2-3 thousand rubles in your pocket, what kind of farming can we be talking about? Another thing often mentioned: they say that in the USSR, everything was for show, but isn't that exactly what happens now? A minister (I don't remember which one) visited the region; they took him to the only successful farm in the area, which is funded almost by Gazprom. And they bragged: look how well everything is here, rather than taking him to the neighboring kolkhoz, where two and a half tractors were left. Another example: not far from my city is the town of Zhukov—the birthplace of Marshal Zhukov. The road to this town was in a depressing state. As soon as it became known that some government delegation was visiting, the road was instantly paved with asphalt, but only up to the point where the delegation's final stop was. The road continues further to another city, but sometimes you lack enough swear words to drive twenty kilometers along it. Regarding Moscow: Moscow is a city that contrasts very sharply with the provinces. And one cannot judge the state of Russia by looking at the state of Moscow.
Added after 15 minutes Berserk;85769
Where did you get such figures? This is clearly a bad source :) With the same confidence, I can say that 80% of people (and a historian told me this!) were innocent! You see, dear Alexei, data is a slippery thing, but several of my relatives became victims of repression—and that is a fact :(
Simply put, those who suffered under the USSR regime criticize it at every turn, while those who lived normally in the USSR note many good things about it. There is no escaping this subjectivism.
