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Posts from your questions regarding the game rules (improving the interpretation).Auto-translated
We are discussing the legal aspect of the issue - how to formulate the situation in the rules: "if a player doubts." The answer is: not at all, because only the player knows whether he doubts or not.
I will repeat once again - if stepping on a cell or flying over it is an "action," then it is generally impossible to step on sand before breaking through the Guard of Magic. And this is clearly not the case (see examples from the rules). Therefore, "action" implies something else.
Even if the word "action" is spelled out in the rules, the same ambiguity will remain regarding how much and from where one can fly - something else needs to be changed.
what's there to argue about if you don't even know the basic rules? If there's no battle/contact, what kind of rest can there be after the encounter?
You said you weren't upset, but you remember all the nuances. The only difference is that you're comparing me now to when we played together. Back then, I was just starting to play and didn't understand many of the rules.
In this situation, if the player who made the move discovers that the guard has been shifted but doesn't break through it during that same turn and retreats for the opponent's turn, it's incorrect to punish the opponent for attacking the hero without breaking through the shifted guard. They don't have that information. Another option is to save the game before attacking the hero.
Wicc
Yeah, and it turns out that players can fight even when the red guard hasn't been broken, which clearly contradicts common sense.
The player could have been attacking gold dragons while staying on their own base, but at their own risk, not reaching the shifted guard – they went into the treasure room. This is a stupid mistake. And this is a specific case.
Wicc
And if they don't warn you? They step away to use the restroom during their turn. What should the opponent do – attack the dragons? Or assume that there was a third guard that the opponent just broke through (and stayed put because the timer ran out)?
Write a message on ICQ – if there's no response, save the game and note the timer. Wicc
I repeat – the rules should be simple, clear, and have a single interpretation so that any reasonable player can correctly assess the situation in a few seconds.
So, is the interpretation of breaking through multiple guards by controlling the shortest path from the base complex or incorrect? I use the general rule to explain the specific rule about breaking through multiple guards and controlling: - In order to exit your zone and enter the central treasure room (zone 5), as well as to move from the central treasure room to other zones, you must break through the corresponding guard
... The right red trajectory passes through textures and ends with a cell on the snow to the right of the dragons, then it continues down from there toward the efreets. The blue trajectory - passes through the treasure zone; by following it, the player will receive information, meaning they will penetrate the treasure zone before breaking the ГО, which contradicts the rules. ...
by bypassing and attacking from the left, he will scout and get information on the left in the treasure zone (currently there is no darkness there - but there was before scouting; as it turned out, it's useless info, but a wing tip or КВ/КЗ could have been sticking out, whereas if he had flown over the snow and attacked the ifreets from the right, he would only see the imp-spot, which was already visible from spawn, and wouldn't have scouted the wings), different situations occur, and also it could have been HotA with a hero on scouting with 3 artifacts targeting it
I'll repeat myself – if stepping onto a cell or flying over it is considered an "action," then it shouldn't be possible to step onto sand until the Ground Offensive (GO) ability is unlocked. But this is clearly not the case (see examples from the rules). Therefore, "action" must refer to something else.
Show me an example from the rules that isn't an exception to them, which confirms that it is possible to step onto sand before unlocking the GO ability.
You said you weren't upset, but you remember all the details. The difference is that you're comparing me now to when we played together. Back then, I was just starting out and didn't understand the rules very well.
lol, if I were playing against a newbie, what complaints or misunderstandings could I possibly have? But this game was between players who had won seasonal medals, medals, Karl.
Show an example from the rules that is not an exception to them, which confirms your words that it is possible to move onto the sand before breaking through the GO (Guard Outpost).
The following was provided above in the topic: skd
There is an analysis of such a situation in the comments on the rules.
It says there: The passage from the Tower's starting zone to the center is guarded by two GOs – Golden Dragons and Sultan Efreet. The Blue player has the right to break through any guard he chooses. He can go out onto the sand and pass by the moved dragons to break through the efreets.
by flanking and attacking from the left, he will scout and gather information on the left side of the treasure (there is no darkness there now – but there was before the scouting, which turned out to be useless information; it could have been the edge of the wings or a Guard/Outpost). Situations vary, and it could also have been Hota with a hero on a scouting mission with 3 artifacts on her.
The rules allow the player to go to the left along the sand to bypass the shifted Guard. This is the shortest path to bypass the shifted Guard, avoiding the Guard made of golden dragons. And if, thanks to the wings, he flies in from the right side along the treasure – this is a violation, because the player will receive information before bypassing the Guard, according to the rules. Why you don't consider obtaining information as an action at all, I don't understand. Why saving movement points by ignoring the rules for bypassing the Guard is not considered a violation is also unclear.
"He can go onto the sand and pass by the shifted dragons to bypass the efreets." In fact, this is a comment on a specific case, and the comment directly states that he can pass by the shifted dragons, and not fly through the treasure.
This is precisely an exception to the rule regarding cases with 2+ Golden Objects on a single playthrough. It doesn't apply here. In the game with Gomunguls and Darkello, there is only one Golden Object.
This is precisely an exception to the rules regarding cases with 2+ Guardians of Order on a single playthrough. It doesn't apply here. In the game with Gomunguls and Darkello, there's only one Guardian of Order.
Danya, what's the fundamental difference between having two Guardians of Order in this specific situation? Doesn't it seem, to put it mildly, illogical that if there were, for example, Dark Knights standing next to the Vivians, everything Dark did would be completely permissible, even according to the letter of the law, even though the benefit of the scouting flight wouldn't change at all? And in general, there wouldn't be any difference; it's just that in one situation, it's somehow allowed by the letter of the law, and in another, it's not.
I've considered different ways to rephrase the rules, and here's what I came up with:
General Rules, current wording:
2.6.1. To move from one zone to another through a specific passage, it is necessary to eliminate the guard of that passage. If there are several guards on the passage, it is sufficient to destroy any one of them. 2.6.2. If the guard of the passage between zones is moved deeper into the adjacent zone, then it is allowed to enter this zone to eliminate it. If there are several guards of the passage, it is allowed to enter the adjacent zone to eliminate any guard of the player's choice. Eliminating the guard in these cases must be the first action in the new zone. 2.6.3. It is allowed to enter the adjacent zone without breaking through the guard of the passage in order to visit an object belonging to the zone in which the player is located.
General Rules, new wording:
2.6.1. To move from one zone to another, it is necessary to eliminate any guard between these zones. 2.6.2. It is possible to enter a guarded zone to break through the guard of the passage if entering the zone and attacking the guard is done in one action, without intermediate stops, overnight stays, or interaction (visiting, collecting, breaking through) with any objects in the guarded zone. 2.6.3. It is not allowed to move onto the cells of a guarded zone with an unbroken guard in order to visit objects in your own zone.
(clause 2.6.1 allows you to use all passages after breaking through any one of them) (clause 2.6.3 may be unfair to some scenarios, but it is simple and avoids situations involving spending the night in an adjacent zone and misleading the opponent about breaking through the guard)
Jebus' Rules, current wording:
- In order to exit your zone into the central treasure (zone 5), as well as to move from the central treasure to other zones, it is necessary to break through the corresponding Guard Outpost (GO). Using buggy passages between the central treasure and a specific zone is prohibited until the GO between these zones is broken through. - It is possible to move through buggy passages between two zones 1-4 only if the GO between the central zone 5 and both of these zones has been broken through. - Moving between zones using the Angel Wings artifact and the Flight and Spatial Gate spells is allowed: a) between any of the zones 1-4 and the central zone 5, if the GO of any passage between the corresponding zones is broken through; b) between two zones 1-4, if the GO between the central zone 5 and both of these zones has been broken through; c) in cases of multiple GOs of one passage - to approach the GO chosen by the player, with the first action in the new zone being the elimination of this GO.
Jebus' Rules, new wording:
a) Moving between a corner zone and the central zone is only possible if the GO between them is broken through, even if control is available (Flight/Wings/Dimensional Door). b) Moving between corner zones (on foot or with the help of control) is only possible if both of these zones have a broken GO to the center. c) If Dimensional Door is available, it is possible to teleport to a cell in the guarded zone next to the GO and immediately attack.
(there is no need to discuss the use of Flight/Wings on Jebus separately to choose a battle point with the GO, as this is already discussed in clause 2.6.2)
In my opinion, this wording is shorter, clearer, and better reflects the players' understanding. For example, Dark's move is legal under this wording.
The rules allow the player to pass to the left along the sand to break through the shifted Gate of the Overlord. ...
passing is allowed - adjustable(!) rules based on reality: 1) "flawed" generator 2) game physics (you can't pass through monsters and rocks - for the shortest path)
restores per block are somehow taken, but it is not described quantitatively anywhere - but still, common sense and the adequacy of the players overcome this ("transfer" this situation to the Gate of the Overlord).
This is precisely an exception to the rules regarding cases with 2+ Game Over (GO) in a single playthrough. It doesn't apply here. In the game between Gomunguls and Darkello, there is only one instance of GO.
Are you reading what I'm writing? In post #66, I explicitly stated that in the Gomunguls-Darkello match, according to the current rules, Darkello committed a violation.
But I also wrote that this violation is not obvious and is a result of an error in the rules, as in similar situations (multiple GOs or a GO shifted deeper into the respawn) Darkello's action would be legal.
to Vik 2.6.2. It is possible to infiltrate the guarded area to bypass the guards at the passage if the infiltration into the area and the attack on the guards are performed in one action, without intermediate stops, overnight stays, or interaction (visiting, collecting, attacking) with any objects in the guarded area. It is not always possible to target an enemy in a single action in a way that is safe and without risk, and in such cases, misclicks can be fatal; you might attack dragons instead of pedestrians with oil and archers.
to Vik 2.6.2. It is possible to infiltrate the guarded area to bypass the guards at the passage if the infiltration into the area and the attack on the guards are performed in one action, without intermediate stops, overnight stays, or interaction (visiting, collecting, attacking) with any objects in the guarded area. It is not always possible to target an enemy in one action in a way that is safe and without risk, and in such cases, misclicks can be fatal, attacking not pedestrians with oil and archers, but some dragons.
Misclicks are a problem for the player, not the rules. Just like knowing the order of attacks when moving to a cell that is adjacent to two guards at the same time.
scorp
