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Posts from your questions regarding the game rules (improving the interpretation). Auto-translated

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In reply to scorp
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#91
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scorp
I didn't even remember your nickname :D, I just happened to find out on the CIS server that it was you :D

And the situation is memorable only because I stopped playing games after that, maybe you think I'm biased towards you now - I don't know, I think I've always been fair.

Who needs treatment here?
I arrived at the CIS server and hadn't even had time to get to know everyone, and I was just sitting in a cafe, and you started bothering me with that situation... it was awful)) Do you want to say that you weren't upset and didn't remember the nickname? Or maybe I started talking about this situation with you right away?
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
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In reply to HellLighT
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#92
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HellLighT
For those with limited mental capacity and similar individuals, let me remind you that the main moderators and judges of almost all tournaments (Pit and Dirty) stated that everything was within the rules when reviewing this situation...
Are they gods or something? They are just people like all of us, and they can also make mistakes. And they made a mistake here. Seriously, are you kidding me? There is no rule that allows a player to hit a single Guardian with a GO in this way. You are trying to rely not on the rules, but on the game logic, and then trying to fit the rules to it. With this strategy, you will never be able to change the rules for the better.
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ICQ - 488-784-621, skype - juristis18

Весна 2014.
In reply to HellLighT
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#93
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HellLighT
For the skd and other similarly gifted individuals, I will remind you that the head moderators and judges of almost all tournaments (Pit and Dirty), when analyzing this situation, stated that everything was within the rules...
if you disagree with a judge's decision, it can be appealed, even if the judge is a member of the AC.
From the tournament rules:
2. A tournament participant has the right to:
c) appeal to the Tournament Judge and/or the AC in case of disagreement with the Organizer's decision on any given matter;
From the AC regulations:
In the event that one of the AC members is directly related to the issue at hand (is an interested party), they shall not participate in the discussion or the rendering of a decision regarding this proceeding.
Since I am contesting the decision of the AC members, who also serve as tournament judges, in this case, the decision was reviewed by the other 5 AC members. And in such a case, I would like to receive a reasoned decision.

Gomunguls's arguments are quite justified. Perhaps 5 cells did not matter within the context of this specific match. But if there had been a Dragon Utopia instead of the hive, and Dark, by saving move points, reached it, and then reached the opponent's main, would those 5 cells be insignificant in that case?
Considering the situation within the framework of the rules—even one cell should be significant.

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
In reply to LuckyF
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#94
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LuckyF
Typical quibbling... and yes, I'll join Vic, it's good that you're not judging... Dark took an absolutely logical action by using wings, and the stories about him incidentally seeing 5 cells of the treasure zone - that's already reaching and a desire to latch onto something to snatch victory where you lost... If it comes to that, wings themselves are wildly imbalanced on Jebus Cross, especially if they are on the respawn, let's ban them:smile04:
Well, on VCL they played without wings, fly, Dimension Door, and it was fine) The value of pathfinding will be higher)
heroes3.tv/juristis
ICQ - 488-784-621, skype - juristis18

Весна 2014.
In reply to Sanin
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#95
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Sanin
How is aerial control related to passing through? This restriction applies specifically to other overland passages. The rules are clear on this:
- Transitioning between zones using the Angel Wings artifact and the Flight and Dimension Door spells is allowed:
a) between any of zones 1-4 and central zone 5, if a path has been cleared through any passage between the corresponding zones;
Indeed.
Gomunguls
I think that if you're unsure whether something is allowed or not, you should save at that point and continue after clarifying, rather than having the result interpreted in favor of the player, as the rules are written with inaccuracies. And since you didn't save before such a situation and took action, you get a loss.
But what if you're not unsure? Dark clearly wasn't unsure. That is, even if this rule is introduced, it will be difficult to apply.
Gomunguls
In this case, the first action isn't breaking the path but visiting the treasure hoard. Whether by flight or on foot doesn't matter anymore.
Here, "action" refers to interacting with objects - visiting, collecting, clearing a path.

Because if visiting the treasure hoard is prohibited, then the path must be cleared without leaving the respawn area.
skd
There's an analysis of such a situation in the comments to the rules
Goblins can be taken from the external dwelling without clearing the path.
And what if the player spends the night on the cell to the right of the external dwelling? On the sand. The opponent has the formal right to attack, assuming that the player has already cleared the path.

A similar situation was recently discussed in the Dau-Logistics game.
skd
I drew: purple - cells where you can use Dimension Door. Red - possible trajectory options when using Flight/Wings. Brown - walking route. Blue - trajectory that violates the rules.
How does the red trajectory on the right differ from the blue one? From the point of view of the rules, not from your subjective opinion.
skd
In my understanding
Disputed situations are resolved according to the letter of the law, not according to anyone's understanding. They are disputed because understandings diverge. See post #66 in this thread (page 5) for more about the letter of the law.
In reply to skd
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#96
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skd
I disagree with Gomunguls that such a violation should result in a technical defeat.

By the way, this point should also be discussed in the rules; I don't think it's a completely fair solution in this situation.
But our rules don't have clear guidelines on what constitutes a technical defeat and when a game can be replayed. And as far as I remember, in most controversial situations, violations resulted in losses.
Also, here he revealed the parameters and mana of my army by attacking a hero. So, if we replay this, he will already have additional information.
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
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In reply to Gomunguls
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#98
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I added that there should be no tricky strategies. After flying into zone 5 during this turn, the same hero must kill any Guardian that leads to the zone from which the flight originated. Until the Guardian is defeated, the following is prohibited:
1) Capturing/fighting in objects
2) Collecting resources
3) Attacking enemy heroes
*It is allowed to attack any units in the treasure, except for Guardians leading to other zones (after they are killed, nothing can be picked up - see point 2).

**All valuable items that were taken before defeating the Guardian during this turn can only be collected by the hero who fought for them (so that there is no situation where one hero flies in, clears the area, and then scouts collect everything).

Gomunguls:smile40: :smile54:, are there any other controversial situations? If so, please write them down, and we'll look into them.
skd
There is an analysis of such a situation in the comments to the rules...
The passage from the Tower's starting zone to the center is guarded by two Guardians - Golden Dragons and Sultan Efreet. The Blue player has the right to defeat any of the guardians of their choice. He can go to the sand and pass by the moved dragons to defeat the Efreet. Also, Wings of Angel, Flight, or Dimension Door can be used to attack the Efreet.
Goblins can be taken from the hiding place without defeating the Guardian.
It's all about loving the rules - there is no restriction on how to approach and attack the Efreet after passing by the Golden Dragons - the only problem is the adequacy of the interpretation of the rules (you can approach the Efreet from any side).
The same applies to how and from where to fly - there are no restrictions (except for: c) in cases of multiple Guardians in one passage - to approach the Guardian chosen by the player, while the first action in the new zone must be to eliminate this Guardian.)
In any case, he can fly from any of the red paths if he then follows the blue arrow during the same turn.
In reply to Wicc
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#99
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What if there are no doubts? Dark clearly had no doubts. That is, even if this rule is introduced, it will be difficult to apply.

He wasn't doubting, but that doesn't mean he's right.

By "action" here, we mean interaction with any objects - visiting, collecting, breaking through.

What is meant by "action" is not specified in the rules; for you, it's visiting, collecting, or breaking through, but for me, it's, for example, scouting. Also, stepping on a cell or flying over it is also an action for me.
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
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In reply to Wicc
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#100
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Wicc

And what if a player stayed the night on the cell to the right of the external dwelling? On the sand. The opponent formally has the right to attack, thinking that the player has already broken the ГО.
In the game Dau- logistics, there was a different template.
In the case you proposed - the player who stayed the night has not broken the ГО, but is staying the night in a treasure zone - the rules allow him to break the shifted ГО in this manner. If the opponent has broken his ГО and entered the treasure zone - he is not forbidden from attacking another player in the treasure zone on a Jebus Cross.

As another option: a player who has not broken the ГО - stays the night on a passage through which one can exit without breaking the ГО. In this case, upon seeing the opponent - he can warn that he has not broken his ГО, then the opponent will first need to fight the gold dragons or efreets, and then the hero.
Wicc

And how does the right red trajectory differ from the blue one? From the perspective of the rules, not from the perspective of your IMHO.
The right red trajectory passes through textures and ends on a cell on the snow to the right of the dragons, then continues down from there to the efreets. The blue trajectory passes through a treasure zone; by moving through it, the player will gain information, that is - he will enter the treasure zone before breaking the ГО, which contradicts the rules.
Wicc

Disputed situations are resolved by the letter of the law, not by anyone's understanding. They are disputed precisely because understandings diverge.
When I wrote "in my understanding," I meant the understanding of the portal's established rules."

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
In reply to scorp
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#101
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Gomunguls:smile40: :smile54: , if there are any other controversial situations, let me know, and we'll look into them.

When there's nothing to say in response, silence or inappropriate laughter ensues.
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWlnXU5R5RLCMuWzIpBc65Q
In reply to Gomunguls
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#102
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Gomunguls
...
He also revealed the stats and mana of my army by attacking the hero. That is, if you replay, he will already have additional information.
Don't you know this too? That everything repeats exactly when you replay, how do you even play without knowing the rules? And he knows, for example, that you have Armageddon, so you will repeat your Armageddon, but he cannot change the equipped artifacts or the army, etc.
In reply to Gomunguls
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#103
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Gomunguls
He wasn't sure, but that doesn't mean he's right.
We are discussing the legal aspect of the issue - how to formulate the situation "if a player doubts" in the rules. The answer is: in no way, because only the player knows whether he doubts or not.
What is meant by "action" is not specified in the rules; for you, it's visiting, collecting, or probing, but for me, it might be reconnaissance. Also, stepping on a certain cell or flying over it is also an action for me.
I'll repeat once more - if stepping on a cell or flying over it is an "action," then you can't step on sand until you've probed it. But that's clearly not the case (see examples from the rules). Therefore, "action" implies something else.
In reply to Gomunguls
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#104
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Gomunguls
When there's nothing to say in response, silence or inappropriate laughter ensues.
What's there to discuss if you don't even know the basic rules? If there's no battle/contact, what kind of rest can there be after a meeting?
In reply to scorp
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#105
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scorp
Don't you even know that? When you replay, everything repeats exactly, how do you even play without knowing the rules? And he knows that, for example, if you have Armageddon, you'll just repeat your Armageddon, but he can't change the equipped artifacts or the army, etc.

Do you even understand what you wrote?
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWlnXU5R5RLCMuWzIpBc65Q
In reply to skd
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#106
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skd
In the game, the logistician's map was different.
So what? The rule is still the same.
In the case you proposed — a player who stayed overnight did not break through the Guard Obligations, but is camping in a treasure zone. If the opponent broke through their Guard Obligations and entered the treasure zone — they are not prohibited from attacking another player in the treasure zone on Jebus Cross.
Uh-huh, so it turns out that players can fight each other when the red Guard Obligations are not broken through, which clearly contradicts common sense.
As another option: a player who did not break through the Guard Obligations — camps on a passage through which they can exit without breaking through the Guard Obligations. In that case, upon seeing the opponent, they can warn that they did not break through their own Guard Obligations, then the opponent first needs to kill the gold dragons or efreets and then the hero.
And if they didn't warn? Stepped away to the bathroom on their turn. What should their opponent do — kill the dragons? Or think that there was a third Guard Obligations here which the opponent just broke through (and stayed standing because the timer ran out)?

I repeat — rules should be simple, clear, and unambiguously interpretable, so that any reasonable player can correctly assess the situation in a few seconds.

If a rule is too complex, requires time for analysis, or some additional information (e.g., from the opponent), then it should be replaced with a simpler rule, even if it is less fair in some situations.