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Posts from your questions regarding the game rules (improving the interpretation).

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In reply to LuckyF
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#76
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LuckyF
Dark made a completely logical move by using wings,
Movement points are an important resource on Jebus Cross, especially for the main hero. It is perfectly logical to save movement points by ignoring the rules governing the breaking of ГО on Jebus Cross.
LuckyF
Is there also an option to rewrite a specific rule? Because following the current one, if there were additional guards next to the wyverns, Dark could have done it anyway—so what is the fundamental difference here?
I understand the rule for breaking a double ГО as follows: a player with control can fly or jump to a convenient ГО to break it. HOWEVER, the breaking itself must occur from the player's spawn side, meaning the movement to one of the ГОs can be made via the shortest path using only the territory of their own spawn. In this situation, the break occurs from the treasure zone side, saving approximately 600-700 MP by such an action.

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
In reply to skd
#77
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skd
Movement points are an important resource on Jebus Cross, especially for the main hero. It's quite logical to save movement points by ignoring the rules governing GO breakthrough on Jebus Cross.
Read my previous reply to you — if there were any additional guards standing on the wasteland next to the dwellings, then even under the current rules everything would be strictly according to the letter of the law; what is the fundamental difference?
skd
I understand the rule for breaking through a double GO like this: the player, having control, can fly or jump to a convenient GO for the breakthrough. BUT the breakthrough itself must occur from the side of the player's spawn. In this situation, the breakthrough happens from the treasure zone side; he saved about 600-700 MP with that action.
You misunderstand. First of all, there is not always an option, when choosing a convenient GO, to break through it from your own spawn. And secondly, we are not talking about an interpretation of the rules right now, but about a clearly written possibility for some action without ambiguity — correct?
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In reply to LuckyF
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#78
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LuckyF

You're not understanding correctly; it's not always possible to break through a convenient Guardian Outpost (GO) from your starting point. That's the first point, and secondly, we're not talking about interpreting the rules, but about a clearly defined possibility within them for a specific action without any ambiguity, right?
The rules for breaking through a double GO must be considered in the context of other rules regarding transitions between zones.
- To exit your zone and enter the central treasure zone (zone 5), and also to move from the central treasure zone to other zones, you must break through the corresponding GO.
c) In cases of multiple GOs in one passage, the player can approach the chosen GO, with the first action in the new zone being the elimination of that GO.

For example, a passage is guarded by two GOs - GO1 and GO2. To break through GO2, you must kill GO1, i.e., GO1 blocks the passage to GO2. But we have control - wings. And, following the rules, we can only move from our starting point, using control, along the cells of the treasure zone that GO1 occupies, move to the next free cell near GO2, and break through GO2. That's how I understand this clarification. And in my opinion, it shouldn't be changed; an official comment should be made on this rule.

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
#79
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Well, in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with what Dark did. He didn't do anything in the treasure zone before breaking the GO. As for flying over a piece of the treasure zone with wings and scouting 5 extra tiles — well, excuse me, that's nonsense. Regarding Homunculus's statements about a possible scenario where someone flies 2k moves through the treasure zone before breaking the GO... well, that's also nonsense. That would mean the papa wastes his entire turn and stops at the GO spot, even though he could have scouted all that in the treasure zone itself and grabbed objects along the way... So why should the clarifications be in favor of banning this action?
PS I repeat once again, the wings themselves are wildly imbalanced on Jebus Cross. Let's just ban picking them up from your own spawn — that would be more logical than nitpicking some not-so-significant moments :smile04:
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In reply to scorp
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#80
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Additional rules for transitions between zones:
...
- Transition between zones using the artifact Wings of the Angel and the spells Fly and Dimensional Door is allowed:
a) between any of zones 1-4 and the central zone 5, if the Gate of Oblivion (GO) of any passage between the corresponding zones has been cleared;
b) between two zones 1-4, if the GOs between the central zone 5 and both of these zones have been cleared;
c) in cases of multiple GOs of one passage - to approach the GO chosen by the player, with the first action in the new zone being the elimination of this GO.

This is just a draft for consideration.
Flying to zone 5 (the center treasure zone) is allowed.
1) In this case, scouting/running around is allowed as much as desired, but during this turn, any GO from the zone of flight must be killed by the hero who flew there. It is forbidden to pick up items or fight in objects, as well as to visit them (except for random encounters in the dark).
2) If Dimensional Door in the Dark was used and the hero ended up under guard, the guard must be killed without collecting anything, and then follow point 1).
3) If monsters block the path to the GO, they can be killed, even if there is a GO without any units blocking it (it doesn't matter if it's closer or further; if it's possible to bypass the monsters along the shortest path, even if it goes through them, they can be killed, and then follow point 1).

Or

after flying to zone 5 during this turn, the same hero must kill any GO leading to the zone from which the flight originated. Until the GO is cleared, the following is prohibited:
1) capturing/fighting in objects;
2) collecting items;
3) attacking enemy heroes.
*It is allowed to attack any units in the treasure zone, except for GOs leading to other zones (after they are killed, it is forbidden to pick up items - repeat point 2)
In reply to scorp
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#81
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scorp
No comments, just wishing you a speedy recovery :)

You probably still don't understand what happened in your case with Heroes of Might and Magic (HoMM)? (The rules are written for a "normal" map generator; while it's "like this," the judge's decision is that everything is within the rules – flying from your zone along the shortest path to the guard protecting the passage without crossing other guards' paths).

P.S. The topic is starting to go in an unclear direction, and no one needs clear formulations anymore. Maybe we should go back to discussing interpretations. Here's another flaw we found.


Wishing you a speedy recovery?? It seems like you need to get some treatment yourself; you're acting a bit nervous.
In that game, in a controversial situation, we turned to Pete, and he explained everything to me and said there was no restart due to the encounter. But in our arguments, I left the game... Later, when he told me everything and that I was wrong, we continued the game, and I beat you... And you thought you were winning, but I found a good strategy and won. In response, you even said in real life that I was cheating... What the heck? Is that normal behavior? The whole point of that situation was that we continued the game... The result clearly still bothers you.
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In reply to scorp
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#82
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In the comments to the rules, there is an analysis of such a situation:


The following is stated there: The passage from the Tower's starting zone to the center is guarded by two ГО – Golden Dragons and Sultan Efreet. The Blue player has the right to break through any guard of his choice. He can go out onto the sand and pass by the moved dragons to attack the efreets. Also, Wings of Angel, Flight, or Dimension Door can be used to attack the efreets.
Goblins can be taken from an external dwelling without breaking through the ГО.

Nothing needs to be changed in this rule; it should only be added that control can be used in this case only to avoid fighting with one of the ГО, while moving across free cells of the treasure zone before breaking through your own ГО is prohibited.

In this picture, the ГО – Efreets are also pushed further back.
II.2.6.2. If the guard of the passage between zones is shifted into the neighboring zone, then passing into this zone is allowed to eliminate it.
Therefore, I believe that you are only allowed to walk along the two empty sand cells to the left of the efreets.
Using wings to fly through the Hive and Impatiens on the sand towards the Efreet ГО is prohibited.

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
In reply to skd
#83
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skd
There is an analysis of such a situation in the comments to the rules


It says there: The passage from the Tower's starting zone to the center is guarded by two control points – Golden Dragons and Sultan Efreet. The Blue player has the right to break through any guard he chooses. He can go out onto the sand and pass by the shifted dragons to attack the efreets. Also, Wings of Angel, Flight, or Dimension Door can be used to attack the efreets.
Goblins can be taken from an external dwelling without breaking through the control point.

Nothing needs to be changed in this rule; it should only be added that control can be used in this case only to avoid fighting one of the control points, while moving across free cells of the treasure zone before breaking through your own control point is prohibited.

In this picture, the control point - Efreets are also moved further back.
II.2.6.2. If the guard of the passage between zones is shifted into the neighboring zone, then passing into this zone is allowed to eliminate it.
Therefore, I believe that you can only walk along the empty cells of the treasure zone for two sand cells to the left of the efreets.
Using wings to fly over the Hive and Imp Nest on the sand to reach the Efreet control point is prohibited.
Now, the question is, what is the reason for exactly 2 cells to the left, why not to the right? The main reason for breaking through a control point is still that objects cannot be collected there until then. Scouting in Heroes is certainly very important, but the fact that a player can scout by flying with Wings to a control point is no more than what an overview ability can show if they are lucky enough to have it nearby... Should we prohibit that too? And at the same time, if he discovers something valuable in the sands during his flight, he will still have to spend movement points to return there if he wants to take it...
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In reply to Gomunguls
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#84
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Gomunguls
...the result clearly still bothers you.
I didn't even remember your nickname :D, I just happened to find out on the CIS server that it was you :D.

And the situation is memorable only because I stopped playing games after that, maybe you think I'm biased towards you now - I don't know, I think I've always judged fairly.
In reply to LuckyF
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#85
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LuckyF
And now a question: what is the reason for exactly 2 cells on the left, why not on the right?
Because that is the shortest path to this ГО on foot. The General Rule for breaking through such a ГО is written for situations without control. Using DD - you can jump to the cell to the right of the efreets. And with flight/wings - one should move along the shortest path within their own respawn - in this case, via the snow cells that are blocked by gold dragons.

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
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#86
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updated 1 post (GO Jebus Cross flight/wings/Dimension Door)
#87
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skd
Because this is the shortest path to this ГО on foot. The General Rule for breaking through such a ГО is written for situations without control. Using DD - you can jump to the cell to the right of the efreets. And with flight/wings - one should move along the shortest path within their own respawn - in this case, via the snow cells that are blocked by gold dragons.
why "should" you?))) what makes you think that's how it should be?))) on what basis is such a cutting of a person's strategy and possibilities happening? after all, it's also an element of strategy: where and how to position the same old dad the day before breaking through the ГО, off to the side and seeing a few cells of the treasure zone (which might show nothing at all), while you still spend moves running cross-country even if without penalty, or at the road by the ГО spending nothing, and then decide which way to look with wings or spoons...
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In reply to LuckyF
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#88
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LuckyF
Why should it be?))) What made you think that's how it should be?))) On what basis is there such a restriction on the strategy and possibilities of the player? After all, this is also an element of strategy – where and how to position your hero the day before breaking through the GO (General Objective), staying away and seeing several treasure zone cells (which may not show anything at all). At the same time, you still spend movement points running along roads without penalty or at the GO itself, spending nothing, and then decide which direction to look with flying units...

Because until the GO is broken, penetrating into the treasure zone is prohibited. In my understanding, even if you run using Dimension Door across the treasure zone, it’s considered penetration. It is allowed to penetrate into the treasure zone to break through a shifted GO – in my opinion, such penetration is permissible from the nearest point of your spawn.
I drew: purple – cells where you can use Dimension Door. Red – possible trajectory options when using flight/wings. Brown – path on foot. Blue – a trajectory that violates the rules.
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UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
In reply to LuckyF
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#89
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Typical quibbling... and yes, I'll join Vic, good that you're not judging... Dark made a completely logical action by using wings, and the stories about him incidentally seeing 5 cells of treasure zone - that's already too much coldness and a desire to nitpick in order to snatch victory where you lost... If it comes to that, wings themselves are wildly imbalanced on Jebus Cross, especially if they are on respawn, let's ban them

5 cells don't matter here, there are no limits on this... I already gave the example with Gunnar, the same actions but distance not 5 cells but 20... there is scouting and 2 pipes...
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Стримы и обучение тут:
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#90
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For those with limited understanding and similar issues, I would like to remind you that the main moderators and judges of almost all tournaments (Pit and Dirty) stated that everything was within the rules when reviewing this situation.