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SoD. Rework for Mage Guild. Is it needed or not?
92 voters
Single choice Public votes Closed 2015-06-09
This poll is closed.
Of course, it’s needed
39.1% 36 votes
No, it’s not needed at all
60.9% 56 votes
In reply to Heroes13
#166
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Heroes13
What made you laugh so much? The fact that people will be able to dig out the needed spells from the first guilds? Slow, Bless, Haste, Blind, Dispel, etc. I don't think it would be a pity to spend wood and stone for Slow, isn't that done in VT, and only rebuilt for control? There is a certain charm to it, sometimes people in FB wonder if the opponent has a specific spell, I'll Blind him, does he have Dispel, I'll Haste myself, does he have Slow. Everyone has encountered this. And rebuilding can open up some possibilities, getting spells for Griffin Conservatories, some Dirt, the scoundrel :D, will come up with a tactic and with guaranteed spells (Force Field, etc.) will break Dragon Utopias with crap. To some extent this balances the game, to some extent it kills the spirit of the old Heroes.
The problem (if it is indeed a problem) is solved, for example, by making rebuilding available only after full construction.

On topic.
Balance in Heroes is, of course, peculiar; it is achieved not by equalizing individual parameters, but by piling on randomness - due to a huge number of random factors, their more or less even distribution occurs.
That is, in general, reducing the number of random factors will reduce the probability of their even distribution between players and worsen the balance.
But the above is only true for those factors that do not significantly outweigh all others in importance, i.e., for factors that are countered in one way or another.
Control can sometimes be obtained fairly easily and, (if the opponent lacks it), is not countered by anything. In H+L+U it's a 99% win, in L+U the percentage is not much lower.
Are there other factors in the game with such or at least close percentages of influence on the result? Griffin Conservatories, Dragon Utopias, Dragon Fly Hives, battle parameters, external dwellings, doubles, free artifacts, a good skill tree - all of these are far behind control in significance and are countered by one another.
It would be very useful to do something about control, and so far nothing better than rebuilding has been proposed.
Награда: Лучшему игроку сезона Осень 2009 за замок Конфлюкс
In reply to Medium_HP
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#167
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Medium_HP
The problem (if considered a real problem) is solved, for instance, by making rebuilding available only after full construction.

On topic.
Balance in Heroes is certainly peculiar—it is achieved not by equalizing individual parameters, but by stacking randomness: due to the vast number of random factors, their distribution becomes more or less even.
That is, in general, reducing the number of random factors will lower the probability of their even distribution among players and worsen the balance.
But the above holds true only for factors that do not significantly outweigh all others in importance—i.e., for factors that can be countered in one way or another.
Control can sometimes be obtained fairly easily and (when the opponent lacks it) is not countered by anything. With Hive+Underground this is a 99% win, with Surface+Underground the percentage is not much lower.
Are there other factors in the game with such or even close percentages of influence on the outcome? Griffin Conservatories, Dragon Utopias, Dragon Fly Hives, battle parameters, external dwellings, doubles, free artifacts, a good skill tree—all of these lag far behind control in significance and are countered by one another.
It would be very useful to do something about control, and so far nothing better than rebuilding has been proposed.

+1
We could also introduce 4th-level shrines and make pyramid spawns universal—at least 1 per respawn))))


In reply to Heroes13
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#168
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Heroes13
What made you laugh so much?
When there are no normal arguments, completely unexpected absurd moves appear — one is afraid that morale will be taken away later, and you've fabricated a problem where it fundamentally cannot exist. Media answered your question extremely clearly, there's no point in repeating. I'll only add that, again, in HotA this point was never a subject of debate due to its insignificance.
And try re-building level 4-5 spells. Often the tower for Town Portal had to be built 4-5 times, and for Dimension Door it could go up to 7 times. It ends up being quite resource-intensive.
And as a rule, in the endgame, it's not specifically Slow/Bless/Blind that decides, but the presence of mass magic for them.
The only thing that re-building levels 1-2 can affect is Jebus Cross. It will become even more mindless. I'll steal the answer on how to get out of this situation from your sandbox — don't play it!:D
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
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#169
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Heroes13
What made you laugh so much? The fact that players will be able to dig up the necessary spells from the early guilds? Slow, bless, haste, blind, dispel, etc. I don't think anyone will mind spending wood and stone for slow, especially since that's how it's done in Warlords, and it's only for control purposes, right?
To dig up the desired spell, you'll have to spend some resources. Maybe spending 4,000 on 2 level 1 upgrades is nothing for some, but for me, it's equivalent to 4 castle units. And the cost of upgrading to levels 4-5 becomes astronomical; upgrading a level 5 guild 8 times costs 90 resources and 9,000 gold. Consider that instead of building and upgrading archons twice, you get the entire level 5 guild.
On the other hand, water and fire will be used more often, as there will be an opportunity to dig up prayer and berserk. The game will become more diverse. That's a good thing.
http://heroes3.tv/player_#s
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#170
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I think that a rebuild of levels 1-2 definitely won't affect anything. With such an abundance of scrolls and shrines, it's not so critical where you picked up Slow. In WT, on Jebus Cross, I often built GM2 in a village, split a folder there for a book/mana, and the next day rebuilt it to get Slow/Blind.

Added after 2 minutes
Medium_HP
On topic.
The balance in Heroes is certainly peculiar; it's achieved not by equalizing individual parameters, but by piling on RNG — due to a huge number of random factors, they are more or less evenly distributed.
That is, in general, reducing the number of random factors will lower the probability of their even distribution between players and worsen the balance.
Exactly. If both players have guaranteed access to control, then it starts to come down to who got how many Dragon Fly Hives/conscripts.

Added after 1 minute
KobRa_RR
and make pyramid spawns universal, at least 1 per respawn))))
Then we'll see reports like: "on day 121, bought out the town, took a pyramid, got Dimension Door and go to the opponent. ggwp"
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#171
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Everything is just so emotional right now—op op op, I'll give it a go—no way—well, you little babies, you can't do that (((( Regarding the subject—rebuilding is needed—like a checkbox—the 7th one in the start options—GOD said it correctly—remove obelisks and forts so they can be taken without building up, but rebuilding—10 sheets of prose and holy wars—nonsense—it's at least worth trying—again—whoever wrote this, everything is negotiable—why can't you add or remove? We'll push around and figure it out—many from WT—the old-timers have come/returned—to SoD—yes, that's true, they want to—but in this context—there is an opportunity and there is a necessity—it really exists—will it change the balance—I don't think so—vote collectively on how to correctly rebuild (remove scrolls like in WT—keep them—something else)—that's the topic for discussion—not "yes, no, idk I haven't tried"—which is why I suggest!
1. Discuss the cost and quantitative characteristics of rebuilding (how to carefully do it so that everything stays around a checkbox, and doesn't become an OMG for beginners or a balance change / - in the game).
2. Put rebuilding on test (a checkbox!!!!)—LET THE PEOPLE TRY—but DO NOT INCLUDE IT IN ANY Tournaments FOR A YEAR (in a year we will understand if it's needed or not—if it introduces anything or not—if it creates balance/imbalance or not).
3. Stop being babies, otherwise in 5 minutes everything will be decided by a phone call. :D

Oh yeah, forgot to add—a bonus of 100 u.e. for the devs—Kobraaaa pays 50—10 each from me and Kostik—the rest 5 u.e. from sympathizers—something like that )
324183776, browser32 (skype)
Играю почти всегда - пишите =)
Мой twitch канал https://www.twitch.tv/browser32

Весна-осень 2011.

In reply to Dirty_Player
#172
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Dirty_Player

Exactly. If both players have guaranteed access to control, then it comes down to who got how many Dragon Fly Hives / Griffin Conservatories.
There will be no equal access — someone will get Dimension Door on the first try, someone else only after seven rebuilds, meaning a week later and seven times more expensive. You might not have time to gather enough resources or simply build in time with the tempo. Thus, control turns from a "didn't find it — lost" factor into a factor that can be compensated by others — Griffin Conservatories, Dragon Fly Hives, parameters, magic, tempo, and so on.
Награда: Лучшему игроку сезона Осень 2009 за замок Конфлюкс
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#173
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Browser
Everything is just based on emotion - op op op give me - no way - now sweeties, you can't do that (((( Regarding the subject - restructuring is needed - like a checkbox - 7th in the start options - GOD said it correctly - remove obelisks and forts so they can be used without building up, but restructuring - 10 sheets of one long story and holy wars - nonsense - at least it's worth trying - again - whoever wrote this, everything is negotiable - why can't you add or remove? We'll push around - we'll figure it out - many from WT - the old-timers came/returned - to SoD - yes, that exists, one wants to - but in this context - there is an opportunity and there is a necessity - there really is - will it change the balance - I don't think so - vote collectively on how to correctly restructure (remove scrolls like in WT - keep them - something else) - that is the topic for discussion - not "yes, no, idk I haven't tried" - therefore I propose!
1. Discuss the cost and quantitative characteristics of restructuring (how to do it carefully so everything stays around a checkbox, and doesn't become OMG for beginners or an introduction of balance / - into the game).
2. Put restructuring on test (a checkbox!!!!) - LET THE PEOPLE TRY IT - but DO NOT INCLUDE IN ANY Tournaments FOR A YEAR (in a year we will understand if it's needed or not - whether it introduces something or not - creates balance/imbalance or not).
3. Stop being sweeties, otherwise in 5 min everything will be decided by a phone call. :D

Oh yeah, forgot to add - for the devs, a bonus of 100 u.e. - 50 paid by Kobryyyy - 10 each from me and Kostik - the rest 5 u.e. from sympathizers - something like that )

What emotions, Stepa. That's what voting was invented for; we voted, saw the result, and moved on. There are a bunch of posts here from the same people with some beliefs and options.
Forget about the majority, close the poll and forward to get those medals!
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#174
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I don't understand – is the poll here for adding a checkmark to the HotA rules, or for implementing a GM overhaul in the SOD? These are two different things. P.S. The 10-vote difference has remained consistent throughout the entire voting period.
404498871
In reply to Medium_HP
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#175
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Medium_HP
The problem (if you can even call it that) can be solved, for example, by making the upgrade available only after the building is fully constructed.
However, there is no specific information, and many don't fully understand what exactly is being proposed. This option is much more interesting. A small thought occurred to me: will this affect the choice of city in any way? The guild will become slightly more valuable than it is now, and will some cities that don't have certain guild levels suffer from this? In essence, they shouldn't, as there are plenty of cities in XL maps.
Before this, I envisioned a slightly different upgrade system, but I like this one more now. But unfortunately, I'm still influenced by stubbornness (resentment) for the classic game. If this is where it stopped... as we know, all projects always want more over time and constantly add something. Take the first versions of WoG, HoT, VT (I'm not sure about TE), with updates they became further and further away from the classic Heroes. The same will happen here; the topic arose because of XL templates. Gradually, they will start talking about other templates, and the appetite will grow. In a year, they will start changing something else, and the same specific imbalance will become annoying, and other topics will arise. There is no guarantee of this; if they allowed one thing, why not go further? That's just how people are. :(
Мой ник Heroes, и никто не вынесет меня
Скажу я вам, мои друзья.
Я некромант, я маг великий, и армия моя
Непобедимая, огромная!
In reply to Browser
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#176
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Browser
Oh yes, I forgot to add – the developers will get a $100 bonus – Cobriiii will pay $50, and Kostik and I will each contribute $10, and the rest will be $5 each from those who sympathize – something like that.
It will be ready soon.

Added 4 minutes later
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d4RtvMQp10
http://heroes3.tv/player_#s
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In reply to Javdet
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#179
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Javdet
That's a cool twist, I wouldn't have thought of that:D

Added 15 minutes ago
=Lizard=, =Stinger=, Amiloo, BA/IEHOK, Browser, dom2, Dust_HL, FireToSky, Gomunguls, Huanito, iDD, Javdet, Jubi-Juby, Juristis, KobRa_RR, LeBron, LuckyF, Medium_HP, MrP1nchy, Satyr, Ominous1, Piterius, Player_, Redwhait HP, Sanin, Scorpiona, Simon5760, theShevanesian, u2noob, Vatya, zxc

Aiwe, aka.Ward3n, Alexey-omsk, AYMAN, BISHOP, bul, злой_романтик, Dark, Dark30, Dima Surmay, Dirty_Player, Falcone, FAVorite, Grizvald, gseva, HellLighT, Heroes13, Heroin_HP, Iamsamstan, identity, JintoLengley, Joker2k, Kilgor, Lim4, Loinz, Maretti, Master_A, MaxGor, nik312, skd, special_k, Stomper, Stryfe, The_, twaryna,
Wicc,
WishmasteR, Yosha

Those highlighted in red were active in the BT chat. In my opinion, the picture is very clear. I don't remember you, but let it be. I think it's hard to come up with a more illustrative picture.
And there's no need to force morals and other things. It's not dignified.
When I was preparing for the CIS tournament in Yekaterinburg, I played many games in BT, except that I played there under the nickname player...some number, plus CIS – I didn't like it – that's about the clear picture :)
Regarding the vote, as I understand it, the "conservatives" won, so what's all the fuss about? If you want to play with changes, make a mod (pay Wizard) like m200 and go play among yourselves, no one is against it, I can even write in the OFB rules that, with mutual desire, you can play with changes. Someone wrote about a test tournament with changes – that's a great idea, organize it – maybe people will look at it, appreciate it, and realize it.
296524052
Весна 2012.
In reply to Heroin_HP
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#180
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Heroin_HP
:confused: What's the point of distributing votes among participants from the CIS?
Well, it's like, if you get off your ass and go somewhere to play in a club, then you're a cool guy. And your vote is very important. But if you only play on the forum, then you're just an average noob, a loser, plankton, dirt from under your fingernails.
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
In reply to Lider1
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#181
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Lider1
Well, it's like, if you get off your butt and go somewhere to play in a club, then you're a cool guy. And your opinion really matters. But if you only play on the forum, then you're just an average noob, a loser, plankton, dirt from under your fingernails.

:D :D :D :D :D


#182
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Guys, you're all talking about checkboxes, but you should first ask someone like Wizard how feasible it is to implement this restructuring. Adding a checkbox is easy, but implementing it is much more complex, I think. Secondly, the situation of "power vs. control" is indeed not uncommon, and here, all things being equal, it will come down to who can overwhelm the other. Thirdly, there's the issue of resource volume. You'll really have to build all the chains to collect them, and it's unclear from which version you'll be able to restructure. I haven't played Warlords of the East, but I have played Tribes of the East with experience-based units. If a unit is upgraded, it can easily break through defenses. In Conflux, there is no unit experience, so it won't be possible to conduct battles in that way. And fourthly, why is such a great game like Warlords of the East, with its restructuring and other advantages, dead? You'll say that they stopped working on it, but if everything was so good, why continue to improve it?
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