Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments. — Tournament Committee

Juristis

11 years ago

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Liz, you are wrong; the rules have been violated, and the opponent has the right to demand a technical win. If I were in Togi's place, I wouldn't have pushed for it, but he decided to, and he has every right to do so according to the rules.

In reply to Redwhait

PReDS

11 years ago

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Redwhait HP

Bone, the situation is 50/50 here. For you, it's a time-saver, but someone is being overly strict with the rules, and there's nothing you can do about it. You just need to draw conclusions about the person, add them to your blacklist, and that's it.
Not everyone understands fair play, and that's their personal problem.

Zhenya, here it's exactly the opposite: the organizers need to draw conclusions and consider whether it's worth registering Kostya in tournaments if he doesn't understand the difference between a casual game with a long-time friend (even if it's online) and a tournament where he might face a player who doesn't even understand Russian.

There are many "wonderful" tournament organizers on VT who resolve situations "according to their own understanding" - how many of them actually finish the tournaments?

In reply to PReDS

=Lizard=

11 years ago

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It seems like you didn't even read what I wrote and aren't familiar with the situation (especially regarding Chingiz and the Lawyer). A game with Togana was already played – I won easily, 100% of the time. That's why I didn't pay attention to the complete nonsense – that is, battles that have absolutely no impact. To artificially inflate the result in such a situation means to disgrace yourself and debase yourself even further. You're talking complete nonsense, and yet you're all intelligent people. **Answer one simple question, if you're so smart: if in the first round of a battle, the opponent theoretically cannot kill anyone and cannot gain any speed advantage – what is the difference between retreating in the 1st and 2nd rounds?** After someone provides a sensible answer (besides "the rules are the rules"), I will take the nonsense you're spouting seriously. You clearly haven't understood the situation, and are just blurting things out.

In reply to =Lizard=

Wicc

11 years ago

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=Lizard=

Please excuse me, but what is the point of the AK then? Just to quote the rules? It's not like everyone is stupid; we can all read.

And here, since we're on the subject – it's not every time. Is it really that hard to understand what I'm trying to convey:

IF THERE CAN THEORETICALLY BE NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ROUND 1 AND ROUND 2 OF A BATTLE – WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE IN WHICH OF THEM YOU FLEE??? It's just a way to save time. I don't know about you, but I'm incredibly annoyed by how all these noobs start spending hours moving units around in battles that don't matter. I (like all serious players) do absolutely unimportant things as quickly as possible – and this is a sign of RESPECT FOR THE OPPONENT.

In general, if the decision in this case is not in my favor, the conclusion will be one thing – this is a gathering of formalists, not a Heroes community. And what is happening here has only an indirect relation to Heroes. Any sane person will be on my side.

In street football, there is a principle: if the ball goes out of bounds over the line, the player can catch it with their hands so they don't have to run after it. In this case, it's considered an out-of-bounds or a corner kick.

This habit becomes so ingrained in street players that they sometimes do the same in tournaments, for which they receive a penalty and a yellow card.

The rules don't have to be fair; the rules have to be simple, clear, and unambiguous.

In reply to =Lizard=

Juristis

11 years ago

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=Lizard=

Answer, if you're so smart, a simple question: if in the 1st round of battle, the opponent theoretically cannot kill anyone and cannot gain 1 speed advantage – what is the difference between retreating in the 1st and 2nd rounds?

After someone gives a sensible answer (besides "the rules are the rules"), I will take seriously the nonsense you are spouting, without understanding the situation, but just to say something.

The point is that if you retreat in the 2nd round, you will bring the game to a victory, but if you retreat in the 1st round, you will get a technical defeat. And you shouldn't get angry at people who are giving you their opinion; you were the one who wanted to hear it.

In reply to =Lizard=

PReDS

11 years ago

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=Lizard=

After someone provides a sensible answer (other than "the rules are the rules"), I will take seriously the nonsense you are spouting, without even bothering to understand the situation, just to blurt something out.

I have already given you a clear answer: this rule was discussed about 2 years ago at Pete's initiative; there were about 20 pages of arguments (both reasonable and not so reasonable) on the forum – in the end, they settled on this particular wording: find that topic with the discussion and enjoy the arguments for and against it. But it seems that your main goal is to whine that you are being unfairly treated.

fil0sof

11 years ago

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Guys, you are really wrong...
I perfectly understand Lizard, who is already getting frustrated – you are saying things that are completely illogical.
Rules are a great thing, but common sense hasn't been canceled either. After all, this is a Community of fans of a rather intellectual game, which kind of suggests that the average level of intelligence is above average. Surely, for thinking people, it is obvious that any wording of any rules can be criticized and presented in a way that benefits them?..

What is the main goal of creating a set of rules? To prohibit the use of tactics that are generally considered imbalanced, in particular, hit-and-run. What is hit-and-run? You can argue as much as you want about commas in the wording (20 pages, you say?.. not bad), but the fact remains: any experienced player understands what is being discussed. The wording is needed, firstly, for beginners, and secondly, for the beauty and solidity of the rules themselves. All that Lizard's opponent did in this situation was to show that the wording "use magic in the first round of the battle and run away/bribe" is less precise than "use magic in the first round of the battle and run away/bribe, provided that, if he had not run away/bribed, he would have suffered losses." It is clear to everyone that no one will include the second wording in the actual rules, because there are very few cases that it covers.

But that is exactly what the appeals committee is for!

And that is why the human factor is needed, to understand when the wording becomes insufficient and to put common sense first. To recognize that even the most precise wording cannot be 100% consistent with all real situations. To analyze the real game situation based on the save files and look at that battle. And to make an adequate decision.

In reply to fil0sof

Wicc

11 years ago

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fil0sof

That's why the human factor is needed – to understand when formulations become insufficient and to prioritize common sense. To acknowledge that even the most precise formulations cannot be 100% applicable to all real-life situations. Analyze the actual game situation based on save files and look at that particular battle. And make an appropriate decision.

Yes, a player has the right to ask a judge to make an exception to the rules due to special circumstances.

For example, in club Tournaments, minor unintentional violations usually don't result in technical penalties; instead, the turn is simply replayed. Or it may be ignored altogether if the violation doesn't affect the course of the game (replaying the turn doesn't change the outcome).

Another example: in Odessa, Lizard had a situation where the first Dimension Door was unfavorable (Sultans), but the second one was good (Bears), but he could only reach the second one by using DД and jumping into the center through the first Dimension Door. Now, this situation seems to be covered in the rules, stating that it's allowed, but back then, it wasn't written down or included in the specific Tournament rules (I don't remember the details anymore). After some thought, I decided that it didn't contradict the spirit of the rules, so I allowed him to jump.

But this should be a request, not a demand. Which the judge can either grant or deny, and in both cases, they will be correct. And, of course, this should be done without stomping your feet and saying "You are all ****! I demand! Down with the rules!" – this is purely an incorrect attitude, giving the judge the moral right to tell the unruly guy to go away.

And the rules should remain the rules; they should only be overloaded with exceptions if borderline situations arise constantly. The discussed situation clearly isn't one of those that occur even remotely often.

=Lizard=

11 years ago

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Okay, the topic is closed. The position is clear. Thank you to those who supported (and, accordingly, fully understood the situation). I apologize if I offended anyone. But the fact remains: the only purpose of the Arbitration Committee is to allow newbies to complain and fabricate results. No other practical purpose is observed.

HellLighT

11 years ago

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In reality, the Appeals Committee exists to review cases when a player disagrees with the decision of a tournament judge (to whom one should address their concerns in the first place), and not to listen to complaints about every little thing from a "newbie."

In reply to Wicc

fil0sof

11 years ago

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Wicc

And the rules should remain rules; they should only be overloaded with a list of exceptions if borderline situations constantly arise. The situation being discussed is clearly not one that occurs frequently.

I completely agree with you on this; in fact, that's what I wrote in my previous post.

Wicc

And, of course, this should be done without stomping one's feet and shouting, "You're all ****! I demand! Down with the rules!"

Lizard's first post on this topic wasn't at all like that. And then he just got upset because he was being told in unison that "the rules are the rules, it's your fault – replay," without anyone bothering to understand the situation. Of course, getting upset is bad in any case, and I'm not trying to excuse Lizard, but he can be understood.

By the way, regarding the main topic. The issue has been resolved; will there be a replay?

In reply to HellLighT

Juristis

11 years ago

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HellLighT

In reality, the Appeals Committee exists to review situations when a player disagrees with the decision of a tournament judge (to whom one should address their concerns in the first place), and not to listen to complaints about every little thing from a "noob."

Actually, it's your fault. You beat the poor Toganash twice in a row using the standard rules, and now he'll be looking for any excuse to complain in every game.

HellLighT

11 years ago

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Nothing is true, everything is permitted :D

In reply to =Lizard=

Dirty_Player

11 years ago

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=Lizard=

Please excuse me, but what is the point of the AK then? Just to quote the rules? It's not like everyone is stupid; we can all read.

What is the point of having judges in any sport?

Imagine a boxing match where one boxer kicks the other in the groin and then says, "But I was winning anyway, it didn't matter."

In reply to Dirty_Player

=Lizard=

11 years ago

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Dirty_Player

Why are judges even needed in any sport?

Imagine a boxer hitting another boxer in the groin and then saying, "But I was winning anyway, so it didn't matter."

Let's not argue; the topic is closed. If we're going to use sports analogies, in this case, I didn't kick someone in the groin; at most, I stuck my tongue out at my opponent. It's unlikely that a boxer would be stripped of a victory for that. This, by the way, is another point about gradation.

Whatever decision the Arbitration Committee makes, that's what will happen. If they decide one way, that's it; if they decide on a replay, that's it. I'm not going to argue with anyone or withdraw from the tournament, etc. Maybe it's for the best; I'll pay more attention to the details. It's important in Heroes.

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