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Posts from Poll with comments: skill tree.

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Cheat or no cheat?
69 voters
Single choice Public votes
This poll is closed.
Cheat!
46.4% 32 votes
Well, I don't think so
30.4% 21 votes
I'm having trouble answering
23.2% 16 votes
In reply to Mizrael
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12 years ago
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Mizrael
He didn't hesitate and spent yesterday evening searching for and testing a program; honestly, I'm shocked. Now, many "strange" choices of main heroes from old parties are clear to me; people simply knew all the upgrade options for all their heroes and chose the one who levels up better and more consistently. The program is an insane cheat – it shows all the heroes on the map at the moment of memory scanning, including those sitting in the taverns of each player and in prisons (you can't hide on restarts that Pikadryl came to you as the second hero, etc.), meaning it gives a real in-game advantage in the form of information that cannot be obtained by ordinary means...

Thank you, Mizrael! I've long suspected that this is the case. Any programs that allow gaining an advantage in the game should be prohibited. Those who use them and pretend to be clueless should be treated like cheaters, and even better, a way should be found to ban them programmatically. The weak stance of the rest of the administration on this issue is surprising.
In reply to rebellious
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12 years ago
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rebellious
I've said many times that it's necessary to protect data in physical memory from heroes, even in the context of using *. Implementing memory protection is practically impossible or quite expensive. But, we can take a different approach – intercept Open Processes and either list them or block them (kill them). The latter option is similar to a rootkit, which all antivirus programs will detect. Therefore, a listing of processes by the MD5 hash of the EXE and DLL files, followed by a mechanism for either alerting or blocking, is still needed.
...
Let's say someone doesn't want to install additional upgrades/programs/DLLs, etc., and how can this be checked? – A program is needed to check what exactly the opponent has in the Heroes folder (impossible) or in the running Heroes game (like checking an IP address on the internet, it immediately shows what else you are using).
In reply to scorp
12 years ago
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scorp
let's say someone doesn't want to install additional upgrades/programs/DLLs, etc., and how can this be checked? - a program is needed to check exactly what the opponent has in the Heroes folder (impossible) or in the running Heroes game (like checking an IP address on the internet, it immediately shows what else you are using).
I see it this way. A database is created containing the MD5 hashes (a 128-bit identifier for a data block) for all "bad" programs and libraries related to Heroes (and not just in the Heroes folder, but everywhere). And, let's say, during the connection with an opponent, the data is compared, and, accordingly, if "bad" programs are running, the ability to play is prohibited. And also, notify (if possible, block the Heroes game) if such a program was launched after the game started. Text files are more complicated. And, in fact, who will do this.
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12 years ago
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I think that, first, we need to get a clear resolution from the Arbitration Committee on this issue, and then we can think about how to implement it. For many, it will be enough to feel morally clean in their own eyes, so they don't have to worry about cheating.
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12 years ago
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If the program shows other players' heroes, those waiting in the tavern, etc., as Mizrael mentioned, then it's cheating, in my opinion!
In reply to Dark
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12 years ago
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darkello
If the program shows other players' heroes, including those in the tavern, etc., as Mizrael said, then it's cheating, in my opinion!
So, if a program only shows your heroes (+2 in the tavern) and their future upgrades, is that a "fair" program?

P.S. The next program will be a chain corrector, with proper unit placement before battle, and a bunch of other small features.
P.P.S. "To hell with such programs!"
12 years ago
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The program does not launch while the game is running, meaning you won't be able to check other players' heroes in the tavern. All that can be obtained from it are those very skill trees... Most people haven't read them, yet they vote. I was surprised to learn about old versions, and even more surprised that there are people using these "old versions."

People's positions on this issue are VERY interesting.

How is the use of such a "tree calculator" (Yes, in this case, let's call it exactly that, because players with more games under their belt will memorize all "non-standard" trees and know where to take what and where not to) different from using a guard calculator? A damage calculator? PhysMig? For heaven's sake, even template schemes? All of the above allow a person with fewer played matches to reduce the time spent acquiring some encyclopedic knowledge.

The most "dangerous" of the above (including the tree calculator) is PhysMig. People can learn many things from it right during the game, and knowing EVERYTHING listed in PhysMig without exception would require playing millions of matches for every single rare case (which you'd likely never test before a game). And each such detail is a won game. An example? The fact that wyvern poison isn't blocked by anything, but the power of the Father of Dragons blocks it. Such a situation occurs once in a hundred thousand games, but at that critical moment, something peeked at in PhysMig will decide the outcome.

It is exactly the same with the tree calculator. A person who has played hundreds (or even thousands) of games with their favorite Castle or favorite hero develops an eye for certain skill trees and knows that here, between "ballistics and keenness," they need to take keenness, even if the choice isn't the most logical. Where, one asks, is a beginner supposed to get such information if not from an "encyclopedia" of skill trees?

The rest are harmless examples. A damage calculator simply requires knowledge of formulas and saves time; a guard calculator requires knowledge of slightly more formulas. I brought up the example of template schemes in hopes of shutting up those who use arguments like "There are things I don't want to know about this game. You have to find out for yourself." Want to find out for yourself? Then why the hell are you digging through template schemes?

Since cheaters exist, the following steps must be taken:

1. Accept it. Such a thing is impossible to prove. Even someone caught red-handed can (and would be right) say that they've already played a couple of times as Craig with this skill tree / played offline before and know this skill tree almost by heart, hence the "strange" choice. Blindly accusing such a person of cheating will look biased and foolish.

2. "What should be done then?"

Give honest players a program that has ONLY the function of viewing trees and nothing else. Or (even better) - a text file with the trees so they can search using ctrl-f. This is not such a large part of the game as to cause a panic over it.
12 years ago
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One_123
How does using such a "skill tree calculator" (Yes, in this case, let's call it that, because people who have played more games will remember all the "non-standard" skill trees and know where to get what they need and where not) differ from using a guard calculator, a damage calculator, or Phizmig?
In fact, there is one difference. What is described in Phizmig – the algorithms for calculating damage and generating guards – is part of the game's mechanics. These are things that the developers put into the game themselves, either intentionally or by mistake.
But skill trees are no longer an element of the mechanics. In fact, the developers did not put any skill trees into the game. Skills are given to heroes randomly; the developers simply decided to make it so that by loading the game and playing differently, you could not get the desired skills when leveling up. As a result, there turned out to be not very many different possible sequences for obtaining skills, and because of this, it is possible to predict which sequence has appeared. And this possibility is essentially the use of a vulnerability of the random number generator to predict the next numbers in the sequence.

It is quite possible that the developers (if they still existed and maintained contact with the players) would share information about the formulas for calculating damage or guards in the game. But it is difficult to imagine that they would reveal the formula for generating a random number for a hero's skill to appear.

Templates are a more interesting analogy; they really played a role as a regulator of randomness. But their idea was greatly developed, and it is quite possible that they were intended to be something more than just a simple regulator of randomness, but the developers were unable to complete (or continue) this, so the players had to figure it out on their own.

There is also something like predicting obstacles (and the presence of a stacked item) on the battlefield based on the coordinates of the cell and the terrain – this is already a direct analogy to predicting a skill tree; it also uses a vulnerability of the random number generator.

P. S. All of the above is just a perspective from a person who has delved into Heroes and understands where these features of the game come from technically; perhaps someone will find this interesting. I perfectly understand that sometimes it is more productive to ignore what the developers intended and I do not claim that the above should be taken into account when determining what will be better for the players.
In reply to One_123
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12 years ago
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One_123
...The scariest thing from the list above (with the tree calculator included) is the physics engine. People can learn a lot from it directly during the game, while knowing EVERYTHING listed in the physics engine without exception would require playing millions of games for each individual, rarely occurring case (which you probably wouldn't test before the game). And each of these small details can win you a game...
No, the scariest thing isn't the physics engine, but the basic rules. People learned to read directly during their lives, read smart books, and quickly became smarter. Otherwise, they would still be accumulating experience bit by bit for millions of years and would still be walking around in animal skins. Instead, they invented computers and, instead of hunting mammoths for food, play Heroes out of boredom.:smile51:
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12 years ago
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Taking this opportunity, I join those who believe that using programs like "Oracle" in online tournaments is unacceptable, because if one player uses such a program and the other doesn't, it gives the first player an advantage over the second. No, the "calculator" itself doesn't think for the player or guarantee victory, but in the hands of experienced players who have thoroughly studied the intricacies of the game's mechanics, the small advantage it provides can still allow them to plan the development of their main hero more effectively, and in games with roughly equal opponents, even a small advantage is enough to win. Regarding the game's mechanics. It seems someone has already written about this, but it doesn't hurt to repeat: I believe that skill trees, as well as everything else that is generated at the start of the game on a given map in a given session (treasure chests, artifacts, skills in witch huts, scholars, shrines, guardians...), were created by the developers so that during testing (when you need to repeat the same actions many times), it would be possible to exactly reproduce the appearance of the same "random" options. Otherwise, in the game, all of the listed things (except for monsters, which we already see) would be generated randomly directly at the moment they are visited - and I have already said that in online play, this would be the best option (to protect against cheaters and map hackers), and in offline play, it would be the opposite; it shouldn't be done this way, so that the player doesn't try to "conjure up" a favorable outcome for themselves by reloading the game. ;)
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12 years ago
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As always, we discussed and then dropped the topic, and that's what's most frustrating. I, for one, still don't understand what it's about (or it's just very vaguely explained), whether it's a cheat or not, and if not, where to get it. The same situation with the chess timer, one-sided units, and a million other topics; they all follow the same pattern: discuss and drop. We need an initiative group with a firm hand and authority. We just had an update to the AK, right? Isn't it time to make decisions on the pressing issues?
In reply to The_
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12 years ago
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The_
As always, we discussed it and then dropped the topic, which is the most frustrating part. I personally still don't understand what it's about (or it's very vaguely explained), whether it's a cheat or not, and if not, where to get it.
The same situation with the chess timer, one-sided items, and a million other topics – they all follow the same pattern: discuss and drop.
We need an initiative group with a firm hand and authority. Our AK has been updated, right? Isn't it time to make decisions on pressing issues?
Don't worry, we haven't dropped it. There's currently an organizational problem within the AK; we'll resolve it, discuss the issue, and make a decision to allow or prohibit it.
There are many unresolved problems, but there are also three million solved ones... It makes sense to pay attention to that sometimes too...
In reply to Pit for LM
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12 years ago
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Pit for LM
Don't worry, it hasn't been ignored. There is currently an organizational problem in the AC; we will resolve it, discuss the program, and make a decision to allow/ban.
There are millions of unresolved problems, however, there are 3 million resolved ones... It makes sense to pay attention to that sometimes as well...
Petr, why are you exaggerating? Your work and the work of others is visible to everyone—the automatic rating alone is a great example, along with many other things. This is excellent, and a huge thank you to you for it; thanks to this, the game isn't just avoiding decline, but is developing in leaps and bounds.
We are talking about issues that can be resolved in half an hour (one-way mirrors, timers, etc.) by a simple official decision and making corresponding changes to the rules (Wizard, as I understand it, is waiting for exactly this to remove one-way mirrors), and as for the timer, I won't even start—it's complete anarchy. Almost no one plays on the SoD timer anymore (only in tournaments where it is specified by the regulations, and even then people often agree on a chess timer), but the values of the chess timer that some people suggest sometimes leave me bewildered. It feels like everyone is afraid to touch anything for fear that it might collapse; polls have been conducted, opinions expressed—what else is needed?
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12 years ago
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We discussed the issue in the AK (Administration Committee). Our rules contain the following clause:
2. The use of additional programs that speed up the gameplay is permitted, specifically:
- A mod to improve the functional part of the interface – HoMM3 HD,
- An animation accelerator in battles – Cranim.
The player using these programs and files is responsible for all bugs arising from their use.
The use of any other additional programs and files that affect the Gameplay is prohibited without prior agreement with the opponent.
The AK believes that knowledge of a hero's skill tree affects the Gameplay. Therefore, any additional programs and files that allow you to know a hero's skill tree in online games are prohibited. Using such software without agreeing with your opponent is equivalent to maphacking.
Juristis
I voted "no"; if it’s banned at the program level, I won’t use it; it won’t make me play worse. If it’s just a rule, then sorry, try to prove it again...
As for you personally, I think you wouldn’t want to be a cheater yourself. We have been playing with passwords for a little over a year now. Nevertheless, even before passwords, the vast majority of players did not open save files or look into the map. I am closing this topic. I will make the appropriate amendments to the rules. Let's continue in the Rules Discussion thread.

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