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Posts from A program for calculating the strength of the guard on random maps in Heroes of Might and Magic III, called H3CalcGuards.Auto-translated
Bug with army dependence on the game week. Most likely related to incorrect growth rounding. According to the program, on a standard ГО at 45k, the number of megadragons does not increase, but in reality it does. For example, with rust dragons, if at week 111 there were 1-4, then by week 141 it was already 5-9, and at week 331 it was 10-19. But the funniest thing is the Archangels at month 20 — according to the program, it will be: 6.25%: Archangel: 9 12.50%: Archangel: 4000 18.75%: Archangel: 4000 25.00%: Archangel: 4000 18.75%: Archangel: 4000 12.50%: Archangel: 4000 6.25%: Archangel: 4000
And another thing. Do I understand correctly that there cannot be more than 100 of any monsters on the map, and 100-249 means a max of 109 at week 121, 120 at week 131, etc.? Do I understand correctly that there are a maximum of 3 Pandora's Boxes with troops in the center of Jebus Cross, and in general on any resp? And is there any dependency in the probability of Pandora's Box drops for magic/troops/experience/gold? Like the standard 30/30/30/10?
Bug with army dependence on the game week. Most likely related to incorrect rounding of growth. The program shows that on a standard ГО at 45k the number of megadragons does not increase, but in reality it does. For example, with rust dragons, if at week 111 there were 1-4, by week 141 it was already 5-9, and at week 331 it was 10-19. But the funniest thing is something like archangels at month 20 according to the program would be: 6.25%: Archangel: 9 12.50%: Archangel: 4000 18.75%: Archangel: 4000 25.00%: Archangel: 4000 18.75%: Archangel: 4000 12.50%: Archangel: 4000 6.25%: Archangel: 4000
Hmm, I thought that when there are fewer than 10 of them, they don't grow. Thanks, I'll double-check this point.
Vatya
Do I understand correctly that there cannot be more than 100 of any monsters on the map and 100-249 means max 109 at week 121, 120 at week 131, etc.?
There cannot be more than 100 as the average number of monsters. So 100-249 in week 1 means a maximum of 125 (but in fact 125 is very unlikely, more likely 100-105). Each week the number of monsters increases by 10%, although, as it turns out, the rounding is currently unclear.
Vatya
Do I understand correctly that a Pandora's Box with troops in the center of Jebus Cross, and indeed on any respawn, has a maximum of 3?
No. Their number is unlimited. Vatya
And is there any dependency on the probability of Pandora's Boxes spawning for magic\troops\experience\gold? Like the standard 30\30\30\10?
Specifically about Pandora's Boxes (each Pandora's Box with each specific creature or amount of experience is considered separately): Pandora's Boxes with experience have a relative frequency of 20. Pandora's Boxes with gold have a frequency of 5. Pandora's Boxes with magic have a frequency of 2. Pandora's Boxes with creatures have a frequency of 3.
1. Hmm, I thought that when there are fewer than 10, they don't grow. Thanks, I'll double-check this.
2. More than 100 cannot be the average number of monsters. So, 100-249 on week 1 is a maximum of 125 (but in reality, 125 is very unlikely, more like 100-105). Each week, the number of monsters grows by 10%, but so far, it's unclear what happens with rounding.
Specifically about Pandoras (each Pandora is counted separately with each specific creature or amount of experience): Pandoras with experience have a relative frequency of 20. Pandoras with gold have a frequency of 5. Pandoras with magic have a frequency of 2. Pandoras with creatures have a frequency of 3.
1 and 2. Specifically regarding Rust Monsters, there is information that their growth rate is indeed not 10%, otherwise, how did I have 8 of them on GO at 131? True, I don't have the save, but I remember exactly 6 stacks, and I don't remember if there were 2 in stack 1 or stack 2. Sabre Terra holds Demons, but maybe someone tweaked something, but GO is a standard 45K as requested.
Although with normal rounding, there would be 7 of them, and if at the maximum, 5.5=6, 6.6=7. But I wrote the report immediately after the game, and it says 8 there.
3 and 4. That's where I got a little confused. Approximately, the probability of a Pandora appearing, assuming they are all present on the map, is in these proportions: Troops 42 (14 units of 3)\Experience 80\Gold 20\Magic level 10\School magic 10 That is, in percentage terms, it would be 25\50\13\6\6?
Added after 36 minutes And the secret was simple. Units do have a fractional number after growth. It's just that the number of units is a whole number without rounding. But still, it doesn't quite match up with 7-8 Rust Monsters at 131...
Regarding the bug with the increasing number of neutral creatures, I confirm it. It turns out that the game stores the number of neutral creatures with an accuracy of up to 16th (i.e., an integer + x/16), which is why even small groups of creatures accumulate from week to week. I hadn't paid attention to this before.
I will fix it and update it in a couple of days.
Vatya
3 and 4. That's where I got a little confused. Approximately, it turns out that the chance of a Pandora appearing, assuming they are all allowed to spawn, is in these proportions: Troops 42 (14 units of 3)\Experience 80\Gold 20\Magic level 10\Magic school 10 That is, in %, it would be 25/50/13/6/6?
In a certain sense, yes (if you consider all magic as magic of a school). But this does not take into account the fact that all Pandoras have different values - and because of this, some of them cannot be generated at all, or some of them have an advantage due to their value. Therefore, it makes more sense to compare them for specific value ranges.
For example, if the total value should be 5000-6000, then this is usually a level 1 creature with or without an upgrade, 5000 experience, gold, or level 1 spells. Frequencies of 6/20/5/2/0, i.e., 19/60/15/6/0, are quite close to your average estimate.
But there is also another point: for half of the objects in the zone, the generator tries to choose the most "dense" object, i.e., the one with the maximum value divided by the number of cells. In the case of Pandoras, for example, in this situation, a more valuable Pandora with experience will displace a Pandora with gold, i.e., the comparison of frequencies will not even occur.
i.e., I roughly understood the dependency for myself: on respawns 4\10\2\1\1, in treasure zones 4\7\3\3\3. It's rough, of course, but the main idea is clear.
Next, how to explain the fact of generating 2 stables or 2 lookout towers on the same respawn? I understand this is a generator bug, because I've seen a straight-up multiplication by 2 on a respawn. I.e., guards of 2 Naga guards or 2 Imp familiars or Dragon Utopias almost on top of each other.
Next, regarding caches. So it turns out that, using the example of the same Jebus Cross, if there is another zone with your respawn, the guards of the caches increase incredibly? Almost by 2 times. 1\5 and 2\5
I overcomplicated the 8 Rust Dragons; there were actually 6 of them. Thanks to The for the saves.
Further, how to explain the facts of generating 2 stables or 2 lookout towers on one respawn? I understand it's a generator bug, because I've seen outright doubling on the respawn. I.e., guards of 2 nagas or 2 imps or Dragon Utopias almost on top of each other.
Yes, it's a bug. The issue is that when the generator forms a group of objects, it does not account for the fact that objects already added to the current group (but not yet placed on the map) also need to be counted in the quantity. Because of this, 2 lookout towers, stables, and the like can be generated on a respawn - but always in 1 group. Theoretically, this bug can have critical consequences. For example, if this causes more than 32 experience stones to be generated, then when visiting the 33rd experience stone, some other object will be marked as visited by the hero, or the information will generally become corrupted. Vatya
Further about the pickups. It turns out that, using the same Jebus Cross as an example, if there is an additional zone with your respawn, the guards of the pickups increase incredibly? Practically doubled. 1/5 and 2/5
Well, the resulting value coefficient without the extra respawn is 1 + 1/5 + 1/2 = 1.7; and with the extra respawn is 1 + 2/5 + 2/2 = 2.4. That is, still not doubled, but almost one and a half times as much. True, this doesn't necessarily mean the guards will also increase by one and a half times, since the relationship isn't directly proportional (here I wrote about how guard strength is derived from value, if you're interested: http://forum.df2.ru/index.php?s=&showtopic=27998&view=findpost&p=558697).
1. Yes, this is a bug. The problem is that when the generator creates a group of objects, it doesn't take into account that the objects already added to the current group (but not yet placed on the map) should also be included in the count. Because of this, there may be 2 outposts, stables, etc., generated at the respawn – but always within one group. 2. Theoretically, this bug can have critical consequences. For example, if more than 32 experience stones are generated because of this, then when visiting the 33rd experience stone, the hero will mark another object as visited, or even corrupt the information.
3. So, the value coefficient without extra respawns is 1 + 1/5 + 1/2 = 1.7; and with an extra respawn, it’s 1 + 2/5 + 2/2 = 2.4. That is, it’s still not twice as much, but almost one and a half times. However, this does not necessarily mean that the guards will also increase by one and a half times; there isn't a direct proportionality here (here I wrote about how the guard strength is derived from the value, if you're interested: http://forum.df2.ru/index.php?s=&showtopic=27998&view=findpost&p=558697).
1. Does the bug duplicate all objects, or only those with guards? That is, if there are 2 outposts or 2 stables, does it also double the number of piles/campsites/treasure zones? 2. The critical consequences lie elsewhere. Because of such duplication, I was able to get out of a treasure zone on a small map with over 100 ducks, taking 6 drowned ones. I doubt anyone would go around exploring various experience stones or even libraries after that. 3. The main point is clear. It’s easier to identify duplicates on maps with a small number of areas containing cities.
Now for new questions:
4. Is it true that the duplicated object will have the guard strength of one object? 5. How can you distinguish between an ordinary low-quality area and a quest-related low-quality area? Sometimes the difference in guard strength is noticeable, but not when the guard strength is 5k; it's hard to tell. 6. Is the player's home town considered when determining the guard strength on the same balance?
1. Does the bug duplicate everything, or only all objects with guards? I mean, if there are 2 outposts or 2 stables, does that mean there will be twice as many loot piles/campfires/chests?
The bug isn't that the objects are duplicated. It's possible for 2 identical objects to be generated in the same group (except for objects with impassable triggers, like a prison or a tavern). The bug is that while the group is being populated, the game doesn't "know" about the objects that have already been added to it, which is why it might add a second outpost to the group, even though there's a limit of 1 per zone. The fact that 2 guard towers sometimes generate next to each other under the same guard is normal; it's a standard situation. Vatya
2. The critical consequences are different. I managed to get out of a treasure map on a small map with 100+ ducks by taking 6 drowned. I doubt anyone would bother exploring rocks or even libraries after that.
Well, it was just a really good treasure map; it's unlikely to be a bug. It's random, and it would be strange if, after so many years of Heroes, such a thing hadn't generated even once. :) By critical, I mean consequences that lead to incorrect game behavior or even crashes. Vatya
4. Is it true that the guard for a duplicated object will guard only one of them?
No. Since the "duplicated" objects are added to the group using the standard algorithm, they are counted as 2 separate objects in the group's value. Vatya
5. How can you tell the difference between a regular "shlak-art" and a quest "shlak-art"? The guard is sometimes visible from a distance, but it's hard to tell on a guard worth 5k.
The value of a regular treasure artifact is 2000. A quest artifact can also be 2000, so it's unlikely you'll be able to tell the difference based on value (but each seer has a frequency of 10, while a random artifact of each level has a frequency of 150, so in the case of a small guard, it's more likely that it's just a regular artifact). Quest artifacts are also banned at the start of the map, which means they exist in the game in only one copy and don't appear in dungeons, the market, etc. If an artifact that is exactly the same has already appeared in the game in some way, then this one is definitely not a quest artifact. You can also analyze the location of the seers' huts (although this is already a murky business). After placing an artifact, the game tries to place its hut one zone away; if that's not possible, it tries two zones away, and so on. If it's not possible to place it anywhere else, it goes to the next zone, and an artifact and its hut can never be in the same zone under any circumstances. Therefore, if the surrounding zones have been explored, and there are no huts visible except in the adjacent zones, it's likely that there are no quest artifacts in that zone. Vatya
6. Is the player's home town counted when determining the guard's strength?
No. The number of zones is counted, not the number of towns. The zones that are counted both in the total number of zones with towns and in the number of zones with a specific town must meet the following condition: - There must be at least one checkmark in the Town types graph for the zone. It doesn't matter whether a town actually appears there or not.
It is quite possible for two identical objects to be generated in one group.
I have encountered wells and observation points located close to each other or at a small distance. I'll show you again if I see it.
Added 11 minutes later
The value of a regular artifact-treasure is 2000. A quest item can also have a value of 2000, so it is unlikely that you can determine it by its value.
How is that possible? Does this mean that a quest artifact can have weak protection??
(but each seer has a frequency of 10, while a random artifact of each level has a frequency of 150, so in the case of weak protection, it is more likely that it is just an artifact).
Is frequency the probability of a pair of artifact seeds appearing? Compared to a regular artifact? That is, it is implied that, with their equal value?
In one group, 2 identical objects can easily be generated.
It's not necessary – this bug is already well understood, including the specific mistake the developers made that led to it. zoog
How is that possible? Does this mean that quest artifacts can have weak guards?
Yes. The guard for a quest always has fewer guards than the corresponding Pandora (but the relationship is not proportional).
For example, a quest artifact worth 5000 gold/experience has a value of 2000 – exactly the same as a minor artifact just lying around (the corresponding Pandoras have values of 5000 and 6000, and, for example, a quest worth 10000 experience has a value of 5333, while a minor artifact (level 2) has a value of 5000).
In general, the value of high-level quests is often not very high, and all values can be viewed in the program. zoog
Frequency – the probability of a pair of artifact seeds appearing? Compared to a regular artifact? That is, it is implied that they have the same value?
The object in question is the quest artifact; the Seer is then placed in a certain zone and does not affect the values. Yes, the frequency is relative; it becomes apparent when, during object generation, several objects fall within the selected value range – i.e., in the case of objects with the same value, this is almost always a pure relative frequency (excluding cases where the objects occupy a different number of cells on the map – in that case, the smaller one is generated more often), and in the case of objects with different values, it shows which object is more likely to predominate in the general value ranges.
Um, well, I wrote it above – there are quests where the guards are exactly the same as those guarding regular treasure – you can’t tell them apart based on the guards. Of course, there are also those that can be distinguished, and they are of greater value.
Pyre