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Offline Roger DAltavilla
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#4583
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Wicc
This is all about studying the everyday life of specific settlements. I mentioned this earlier, saying that archaeology can provide a lot of interesting information here. I expressed doubts regarding economic and political interaction.
What kind of everyday life? It's all about economic and political interaction!
In the example with ostracism, it is clear to anyone who can read that the city's population possessed real (and not nominal) power and could exile undesirable citizens, including those in supreme power. Moreover, it was precisely the citizens of the city, and not the ruling elite.
In the example with Mohenjo-daro: toilets, statues in large quantities, division into a citadel and a lower city = trade, service sector, division into military and civilian classes. :D Something like that.

I won't even talk about the yoke; if several dozen mass graves with traces of violent death from different time layers do not convince, then nothing can convince.
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Offline KobRa_RR
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#4585
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Wicc


Let's say, if you ask for examples of abuse of power in the 90s, most people over 30 will still remember many episodes, both personal and involving their acquaintances. Or take the same budget theft. Putin recently said that about 10% is stolen. The opposition cites figures slightly higher – about 20-25%. The truth is probably somewhere in between. Let's say 15%. I don't have exact figures for how much was stolen in the 90s, but it was clearly more; they didn't really hide it back then. Those same IMF loans were almost completely embezzled. It's just that there wasn't a media campaign back then, so it wasn't widely reported.

A similar media campaign was launched earlier regarding the army – hence all these high-profile campaigns about hazing, the sensationalization of individual tragic episodes (which have always existed and will continue to exist, there are many idiots), and presenting them as a trend. But if you sit down and calculate, for example, the number of deaths per year per 1000 people among men aged 18-20 in civilian life and in the army, you will find that civilian life has a much larger number. That is, on average, it is statistically safer for a young man to be in the army.

Wicc, honestly, I don't know who you're talking to. But my circle of friends (for example, at work) allows me to confidently say that corruption exists and has permeated absolutely all branches of our society, from kindergarten to the Supreme Court. Moreover, it is so severe and rotten that there is no end or limit to this phenomenon in sight. There are occasional public displays of punishment on TV, but that's it. All those who are "taken care of" are still in their positions, and those who are few are replaced immediately. This means that this practice suits, if not everyone, then many, so I tend to think that society deserves what it has. In this regard (determination), I am a little envious of Ukraine, but no more! (I'm not sure that those who are now at the helm of the opposition – Yatsenyuk, Tymoshenko, and others from Batkivshchyna – will be better for the people). There is plenty of evidence of embezzlement, read Navalny, he writes about new and new revelations every day. You can believe no one, but much of what he writes is true. This is indirectly acknowledged by our Guarantor, who periodically launches investigations based on reports from the independent press. Here is a recent example: http://newtimes.ru/articles/detail/75539

Regarding abuses, if you really believe that they don't exist, and that the rich and/or powerful cannot do what they want (or what they have agreed upon), then you clearly live in a different country, in many ways an imaginary one.


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Offline Wicc
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#4586
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Roger DAltavilla
What kind of social structure? The most economic and political interaction possible!
In the example with ostracism, it is clear to anyone who can read that the city's population possessed real (not nominal) power and could exile undesirable citizens, including those in supreme authority. And it was precisely the city's citizens, not the ruling elite.
In the example with Mohenjo-daro: toilets, statues in large quantities, division into a citadel and a lower city = trade, service sector, division into military and civilian classes. :D Something like that.
You are apparently not reading the discussion carefully. The topic was about political and economic interaction between different regions.
I won't even mention the yoke, if several dozen mass graves with signs of violent death from different time layers do not convince you, then nothing can convince you.
In the text you quoted, there are no phrases about different time layers. But let's assume that's the case - what should it convince us of?

On Earth, I think there are dozens or hundreds of mass graves with signs of violent death from different time layers. The settlement and consolidation of humanity are strongly determined by geography and terrain, so military conflicts also do not occur just anywhere, but in areas where the habitats of different tribes overlap.

Specifically in the case of Slavs vs. Mongols, the presence of a series of such burials means that it was in this place that the warring parties met. And nothing more. Occam's razor is quietly peeking out from behind the corner, so other arguments need to be found for further development of the thought.

The problem here is that we need not confirming arguments, but proving ones. That is, arguments that not only do not contradict the stated version (confirming), but also contradict alternative ones (proving).
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Offline JustObserver
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#4589
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For those who prefer to rely on historical written sources, Ariputra has already provided a million and one links here; enjoy reading and learn many new things.
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Offline Wicc
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#4590
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favio
Wicc, have you read Gumilev?
I've read a lot of things... I've been interested in history since childhood. And Gumilev is one of them; he also questioned the classical interpretation of the Mongol-Tatar yoke.
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Offline Lider1
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#4591
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JustObserver
For those who like to rely on historical written sources, Ariputra has already left a million and one links here; enjoy reading and learn many new things.

There wasn't such nonsense under Ariputra ^^ :D :D
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
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Offline Vatya
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#4592
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KobRa_RR
Vik, honestly, I don't know who you're talking to. But my circle of contacts (for example, at work) allows me to confidently say that corruption exists and has permeated absolutely all branches of our society, from kindergarten to the Supreme Court. Moreover, it is so entrenched and rotten that there is no end in sight to this phenomenon.

And who said that there is no corruption? It exists, it has existed, and it will always exist. And it will never go away. The conversation was about the fact that now it is many times less, and in my opinion, even tens of times less than it was in the 90s. And many times less than in the 2000s. That is, there is at least some progress.
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Offline favio
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#4593
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Wicc
I've read so many different authors... I've been interested in history since childhood. And that includes Gumilev, who also questioned the classical interpretation of the Mongol-Tatar yoke.


Gumilev is not a historian, but an ethnographer.
But he has some interesting works.
Personally, I believe that it was a kind of geopolitical alliance imposed on us by the Mongols, against the West and the Crusaders. But each principality had its own attitude.
ICQ: 698753504
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Offline KobRa_RR
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#4594
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Vatya
Who said that there is no corruption? It exists, it has always existed, and it always will. And it will never disappear. The conversation was about the fact that now it is many times less, and in my opinion, even tens of times less than it was in the 90s. And also many times less than in the 2000s. That is, there is at least some progress.

HERE.
KobRa_RR
society deserves what it has.
Confirmation of my words.


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Offline Wicc
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#4595
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favio
Gumilev is not a historian, but rather an ethnographer.
But he has some interesting works.
Personally, I believe that it was a kind of geopolitical alliance imposed on us by the Mongols, against the West, against the crusaders. But each principality had its own attitude.
The Mongols were completely unconcerned with the Western crusaders, if only because they posed no military threat to the Mongols. In general, there is a fundamental problem with nomadic peoples: they cannot build a state while remaining within the framework of their usual way of life. Central authority is simply not needed, as there is no economic need for it. And such essential attributes of a state as a capital, a royal court, and so on, imply a settled lifestyle, at least in the area around the capital. This leads to an increase in the settled population in that area, migration (voluntary or forced) of peasants and artisans there, which in a generation or two gives the typical Eastern structure of the state: a taxable agricultural population + a military elite, different from it in national composition. And the nomadic tribes continue to live their own lives, now weakly dependent on the state that they themselves created. And so it goes until the next demographic explosion in the Steppe, which generates new nomadic armies, sweeping away the softened military elite of neighboring states, their distant relatives. There is no mysticism here, just simple laws of economics and demography. It is on this process that we need to overlay the Mongol-Tatar yoke, the Golden Horde, and other proper names from that historical period. And correctly assign them characteristics - who they were and what role they played in this process. And emphasize that this process is not unique, it has occurred everywhere and repeatedly.
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Offline PReDS
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#4596
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Vatya
Who said that corruption doesn't exist? It exists, it has always existed, and it always will. And it will never disappear. The conversation was about the fact that now it is many times less, and in my opinion, even tens of times less than it was in the 90s. And also many times less than in the 2000s. That is, there is at least some progress.
When something decreases, it is called regression!
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Offline Roger DAltavilla
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#4597
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Wicc
You must be reading the discussion carelessly. We were talking about the political and economic interaction between different regions.
I am reading carefully and understand your point of view better than you do yourself.
You believe that different scientists, based on the same facts, will draw different conclusions. This is fundamentally wrong, but to understand this, you need to master the methodology of history. Of course, my examples cannot replace a university course, but I think that most of those who read this will understand how a historian works. First, scientists collect facts: archaeological, astronomical, geological, and many other facts. Then they put them together into a general picture, where all the facts do not contradict each other, but complement each other. Moreover, this happens under the close scrutiny of critically minded colleagues.
Wicc
The settlement and consolidation of humanity are strictly determined by geography and the terrain, so military conflicts also occur not just anywhere, but in zones of contact between the habitats of different tribes.
I don't want to be rude to someone on their birthday, but this is nonsense. Military conflicts occur not only in zones of contact between the habitats of different tribes, but also between different classes and groups. It is enough to remember religious wars, civil wars, and wars of succession.

Happy birthday, Wic, I wish you all the best, and most importantly, good health. :)
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