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JustObserver
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JustObserver
Wicc
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...
Family psychologists have a principle: in 99% of divorces, both spouses are to blame. The same applies to politics.
favio
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As Napoleon Bonaparte said, "
Revolution is a misfortune for the generation that makes it."
Revolution is a misfortune for the generation that makes it."
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Ihtiandr
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I said that turmoil, riots, and revolutions are ambiguous phenomena, and it is difficult to assess them even decades later.
By the way, you still haven't answered: is the Battle of Kulikovo and the liberation from the Mongol-Tatar yoke also an ambiguous event for Russia?
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Не любят многие порнуху, а я... А я люблю порнуху! © А.С. Пушкин
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Не любят многие порнуху, а я... А я люблю порнуху! © А.С. Пушкин
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Wicc
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By the way, you still haven't answered: is the Battle of Kulikovo and the liberation from the Mongol-Tatar yoke also a controversial event for Russia?))
The official version is heavily biased, and no good alternative has been proposed yet. Or perhaps I haven't seen one, but I've read a lot about this topic.
Ihtiandr
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The entire story surrounding the Battle of Kulikovo and the Mongol-Tatar Yoke is quite murky.
So, you believe that there was no Yoke, and the entire 300-year period was invented by historians who were high?)) Or was there a Yoke, but Russia didn't free itself from it and is still paying tribute to Mongolia?))
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Не любят многие порнуху, а я... А я люблю порнуху! © А.С. Пушкин
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Не любят многие порнуху, а я... А я люблю порнуху! © А.С. Пушкин
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Wicc
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So, you believe that there was no Mongol yoke, and the entire 300-year period was invented by historians who were high?)) Or was there a yoke, but Russia didn't free itself from it and is still paying tribute to Mongolia?))
Ihtiandr
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It’s clear that no one remembers the exact details anymore, and that’s not the point. The purpose of my question was different. What is your attitude towards one country occupying another? Would you want to live in a state where order is established by another country?
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Не любят многие порнуху, а я... А я люблю порнуху! © А.С. Пушкин
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Roger DAltavilla
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It just so happens that a continuous written history can only be traced back to the 17th century, and everything before that is shrouded in darkness. Most written sources from earlier periods only come to the attention of historians in the 18th and 19th centuries, when they were discovered. Or "discovered" - the forgery of ancient texts and artifacts was widespread at that time.
Archaeology can only confirm the level of cultural and technological development, but it cannot provide information about economic and political relations. In this matter, one has to rely on written sources. Or not - see above.
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Rabe
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So, you believe that there was no yoke, and the entire 300-year period was invented by stoned historians? Or was there a yoke, but Russia didn't free itself from it and is still paying tribute to Mongolia?
I think that each episode in history undoubtedly happened, but everything else will have multiple interpretations. Here's an example:
1. Many thousands of people took to the streets of Kyiv and demanded the resignation of the government. The police cordoned off the protesters.
2. A third of Kyiv's population took to the streets (that's a million!) chanting "Down with the authorities!" Internal troops used force (so many people were injured)...
But now, much can be verified, witnesses can be found, videos can be found, but in the 14th century, they simply "ordered it to be written, and that's how it was written."
In this context, I would recommend that you, Ihtiandr, read "Who Built the Great Wall of China?"... it goes to extremes (because it was even older) - up to the point that it was the Russians who built it to stop raids "from there."
It's clear that no one knows exactly what happened in detail, and that's not the point. The point of my question was different. What is your attitude towards the occupation of one country by another? Would you want to live in a state where the order is established by another country?
You can say the same thing now about the USA and its Dollar - they bought everyone. And soon the Chinese will bring the whole world under their control... It all depends on perception.
"Одержать сто побед в ста битвах — это не вершина воинского искусства. Повергнуть врага без сражения — вот вершина.
"Сущность войны — обман. Искусный должен изображать неумелость. При готовности атаковать демонстрируй подчинение. Когда ты близок — кажись далёким, но когда ты очень далеко — притворись, будто ты рядом."
"Сущность войны — обман. Искусный должен изображать неумелость. При готовности атаковать демонстрируй подчинение. Когда ты близок — кажись далёким, но когда ты очень далеко — притворись, будто ты рядом."
Wicc
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History, as a science, has been carefully studying written sources for over two centuries. And it mainly relies on archaeological excavations. And the artifacts extracted from the ground very eloquently testify to the economic and political relations between states, classes, and nations, etc.
Let's say they found ivory beads in Spain. It is clear that they came from Africa, but how exactly – through plunder, tribute, trade, or as a gift? That is, archaeology can establish the fact of contact between different regions, but not the nature of their relations.
The situation is even worse with political status – one can compare the degree of wealth of cities and burial sites, but this does not mean that poorer territories were subordinate to richer ones. And it is even more difficult to assess the nature of this subordination.
Added 3 minutes ago
It is clear that no one knows anymore how it actually was in detail; that is not the point. The meaning of my question was different. What is your attitude towards the occupation of one country by another? Would you like to live in a state where order is established by another country?
There was such an episode in the history of Rus' – Moscow and Tver fought for the right to be the leading power. Tver ultimately lost, and Moscow became the gatherer of Russian lands.
But if Tver had won, everything would be the same now, only the TKAD instead of the MKAD. And the people living now are descendants of the inhabitants of both cities at that time. Therefore, there is no point in evaluating that episode because it is impossible to draw any political conclusions from it that would be applicable to the present day.
Roger DAltavilla
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But how can you confirm economic and political relations between states without texts?
Let's say you find ivory beads in Spain. It's clear that they came from Africa, but how exactly – plunder, tribute, trade, or a gift? In other words, archaeology can establish the fact of contact between different regions, but not the nature of their relationship.
It's even worse with political status – you can compare the degree of wealth of cities and burials, but this does not mean that poorer territories were subordinate to richer ones. And it is even more difficult to assess the nature of this subordination.
In any case, it is impossible to explain the tools used by historical science in one forum post.
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Wicc
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To understand this, you need to take a course on "historical methodology." :D You can also search for "applied historical disciplines" and read about it; it will become clearer how history reveals the relationships between states.
In any case, it is impossible to explain the tools used by historical science in a single forum post.
Roger DAltavilla
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Darkevich V.P. A Journey to Ancient Ryazan. – Ryazan: Novoe Vremya, 1993. – Pp. 245-247.
"Our expedition conducted systematic excavations of mass graves of victims of the Mongol invasion in 1977–1979 in the lowlands near the Oka River and near the former Sterligov estate house on the southern outskirts of the village of Fatyanovka.
The study of anthropological materials showed that out of 143 excavated burials, most belonged to men aged 30 to 40 and women aged 30 to 35. There were many children's burials, from infants to 6–10 years old. These were the inhabitants of Ryazan, whom the conquerors exterminated en masse, many of them after the city was captured. The young men, girls, and young women who survived were probably divided among the soldiers. The skeleton of a pregnant woman was found; a man killed her while holding a small child close to his chest. Some of the skeletons have fractured skulls, and the bones show traces of saber blows, with severed wrists. There were many separate skulls. Arrowheads were stuck in the bones. The inhabitants of cities that offered stubborn resistance faced cruel retribution. With the exception of artisans and those enslaved, the rest of the prisoners were hacked to death with an ax or a double-edged cleaver. Mass executions were carried out methodically and coldly: the condemned were divided among the centurions, who in turn assigned each slave to kill at least ten people. According to the chronicles, after the fall of Ryazan, men, women, and children, monks, nuns, and priests were destroyed by fire and sword, crucified, and shot with arrows. The heads of prisoners were cut off: during the excavations of the Spassky Cathedral, A.V. Selivanov discovered clusters of 27 and 70 skulls, some with traces of blows from sharp weapons.
In the mass graves of Ryazan, the dead were buried without coffins, in common pits up to 1 m deep, and the frozen ground was heated with bonfires. They were laid according to Christian custom – head to the west, with hands folded on the chest. The skeletons lie in rows, close to each other, in places in two or three tiers."
In your opinion, can one confidently judge the nature of the relationship between the Horde and the Russian principalities based on the data provided?
Added 6 minutes later
In Ancient Athens, several thousand shards with names were found, confirming the custom of ostracism. In your opinion, did the people in Ancient Athens have the right to vote, or was there another form of government?
Added 7 minutes later
In Mohenjo-daro (Harappan civilization, 3300-1300 BC), perhaps the first public toilets known to archaeologists were discovered, as well as a city sewage system, and also a citadel and lower city, monumental construction, bronze metallurgy, small sculptures, and irrigation agriculture.
In your opinion, was there a division of labor and a division into classes in the Harappan civilization? Was trade developed?
"Our expedition conducted systematic excavations of mass graves of victims of the Mongol invasion in 1977–1979 in the lowlands near the Oka River and near the former Sterligov estate house on the southern outskirts of the village of Fatyanovka.
The study of anthropological materials showed that out of 143 excavated burials, most belonged to men aged 30 to 40 and women aged 30 to 35. There were many children's burials, from infants to 6–10 years old. These were the inhabitants of Ryazan, whom the conquerors exterminated en masse, many of them after the city was captured. The young men, girls, and young women who survived were probably divided among the soldiers. The skeleton of a pregnant woman was found; a man killed her while holding a small child close to his chest. Some of the skeletons have fractured skulls, and the bones show traces of saber blows, with severed wrists. There were many separate skulls. Arrowheads were stuck in the bones. The inhabitants of cities that offered stubborn resistance faced cruel retribution. With the exception of artisans and those enslaved, the rest of the prisoners were hacked to death with an ax or a double-edged cleaver. Mass executions were carried out methodically and coldly: the condemned were divided among the centurions, who in turn assigned each slave to kill at least ten people. According to the chronicles, after the fall of Ryazan, men, women, and children, monks, nuns, and priests were destroyed by fire and sword, crucified, and shot with arrows. The heads of prisoners were cut off: during the excavations of the Spassky Cathedral, A.V. Selivanov discovered clusters of 27 and 70 skulls, some with traces of blows from sharp weapons.
In the mass graves of Ryazan, the dead were buried without coffins, in common pits up to 1 m deep, and the frozen ground was heated with bonfires. They were laid according to Christian custom – head to the west, with hands folded on the chest. The skeletons lie in rows, close to each other, in places in two or three tiers."
In your opinion, can one confidently judge the nature of the relationship between the Horde and the Russian principalities based on the data provided?
Added 6 minutes later
In Ancient Athens, several thousand shards with names were found, confirming the custom of ostracism. In your opinion, did the people in Ancient Athens have the right to vote, or was there another form of government?
Added 7 minutes later
In Mohenjo-daro (Harappan civilization, 3300-1300 BC), perhaps the first public toilets known to archaeologists were discovered, as well as a city sewage system, and also a citadel and lower city, monumental construction, bronze metallurgy, small sculptures, and irrigation agriculture.
In your opinion, was there a division of labor and a division into classes in the Harappan civilization? Was trade developed?
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Wicc
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Darkevich V.P. A Journey to Ancient Ryazan. — Ryazan: Novoe Vremya, 1993. — Pp. 245-247.
Well, the fact of a military conflict has been proven, and the losing side has been identified. Let's even assume that it has been proven that the winning side was nomadic steppe dwellers (although this is not stated in the text, but okay).
Conclusion? Well, it has actually been stated above.
This could very well have been a one-time raid, even if it was quite large. It could have been the result of a war with neighbors who hired a detachment of nomads for assistance. That is, nowhere in the specified material is there evidence of the presence of the Horde as a state formation, and the nature of economic and political interaction with it is not determined (which is impossible to establish based on a single episode).
Similar excavations, I think, can be carried out in many places along the perimeter of the Great Steppe, with approximately the same result: nomads have been fighting with agricultural peoples in border areas for several thousand years, and from time to time they even ventured deep inside.
However, this was not called a yoke anywhere (or I am simply unaware), and regular tribute payments are not the most popular strategy for interaction between nomads and agricultural peoples. More often, nomads moved to the captured territories and became the local military and administrative elite. This is understandable - why live in the steppe, making long raids for tribute (not always with a positive outcome), when you can settle right near its source.
This process is described in more detail by Nefedov S.A. in the book "Factor Analysis of the Historical Process. History of the East" (easily found online).
Added 2 minutes ago
In Ancient Athens, several thousand shards with names were found, confirming the custom of ostracism. What do you think, did the people in Ancient Athens have the right to vote, or was there another form of government?
Added 7 minutes ago
In Mohenjo-daro (Harappan civilization, 3300-1300 BC), perhaps the first public toilets known to archaeologists were discovered, as well as a system of urban sanitation, and also a citadel and lower city, monumental construction, bronze metallurgy, small sculpture, and irrigation agriculture.
Do you think there was a division of labor and a division by social classes in the Harappan civilization? Was trade developed?