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Posts from Let's talk about our Red Rush strategy...

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Ban or allow Red Rush:
54 voters
Multiple choice Public votes Closed 2013-09-20
This poll is closed.
allow on XL+U templates
50% 27 votes
Leave the ban on XL+U templates in place
50% 27 votes
allow on the Diamond template
25.9% 14 votes
leave the ban on the Diamond template
55.6% 30 votes
allow on the Mini-Nostalgia template
27.8% 15 votes
leave the restriction on the Mini-Nostalgia template
53.7% 29 votes
In reply to Sanin
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Sanin
If the red player cannot see, this move from the blue player will not work, as the red player's attack will not be considered a red rush.

However, if the red player can see, then this move makes sense.
You can position yourself on the side of the portal that the red player can see.
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dom2
This new version of the rules results in a very monstrous structure...
+++
I like the wording: red rush is allowed on XL+U templates, and prohibited on all others.
Воздам сторицей!
In reply to Wicc
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Wicc
You can position yourself on the side of the portal that red sees.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. In this scenario, blue has a choice: to block or not to block the portal for red.
But I'm talking about a situation where red can see both sides of the portal, and blue has the tactical option to cut off red's troop supply. Of course, the probability of such a situation is not very high, but anything is possible. Similarly, you can also block a narrow passage, but in that case, a separate rule would be needed for that scenario, and such a narrow passage is less common than gates/portals.
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Unlike the Poles, we are allowed to block the supply of reinforcements, and they take advantage of this.
In reply to Pit for LM
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A very elegant way to gain an advantage. And in general, war is all about communication!
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Allow red rush on XL+U and Jebus!
In reply to Pit for LM
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Pit for LM
Unlike the Poles, we are allowed to block the delivery of growth, and this is taken advantage of.

Well, I have nothing against it if you block with a strong hero with an army who can put up a fight, but here you could block with any scout hero with a single unit, simply by using a rule point. That is, it would not be a fully gameplay-driven moment, but an artificial one.
ICQ 423164784

In reply to Sanin
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Sanin
I have nothing against it if you block with a strong hero and army who can put up a fight, but here you could block with any scout hero with a single creature, simply by using a rule clause. That is, it would not be a gameplay moment, but an artificial one.
That's what it says in our rules:
...a player playing as red does not have the right to attack on the first day of the week with growth purchased on that day:
б) heroes or guarded mines of blue, if the presence of growth could affect the outcome of the battle or losses in battle for either player.
If blue has a scout hero with a single creature, then why not kill it without losses? That is not considered a red rush.
In reply to Pit for LM
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Pit for LM

If blue has a scout hero with a single unit, then why not kill it without losses? That is not considered a red rush.

Such phrasing, by the way, foreshadows a lot of debate about what and how influenced the outcome of the battle. Alright, I feel like I got involved in this discussion for nothing, do as you see fit.
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In reply to Sanin
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Sanin
This kind of wording, by the way, foreshadows a lot of debate about what and how influenced the outcome of the battle.

+++

And not just what did influence it, but even what could have influenced it. For example, there’s a scout hero with one group of pegasi and they have a shooter. And you attack them with the new growth and you have an angel, but before the growth you didn’t. That is, the growth gives you the first turn, and you can immediately kill the scout hero, but without the growth you couldn’t do that. So, according to the rule, you have no right to attack them.
Of course, someone might say you could just wait with the angel, but it would still contradict the rule.

P.S. I can give other examples where attacking a scout hero with the new growth would violate the rule. But I’m still against canceling the red-rush; it would be much more frustrating to lose when someone attacks you with the new growth, even if it’s an XL map — on such maps, even a meeting rest happens, let alone a meeting on 121.
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Sanin
Such wording, by the way, foreshadows a lot of debate about what and how influenced the outcome of the battle.
Such wording, by the way, was introduced on 25.08.09 /topic/at/281142/, exactly 4 years ago, and up until now nothing foreshadowed trouble.
Dima Surmay
I can also give other examples where, by attacking with a weekly growth advantage against a scout hero, you violate the rule.
When I violate the rule, you will contact the judge or the Arbitration Committee and demand a technical win, and the judge or the AC will think it over and give me a technical loss.
Sanin
Alright, I feel I shouldn't have gotten involved in this discussion, do as you see fit.
Thank you for the permission.
Wicc
In the CIS Championships, an interpretation almost the same as Pete's was used, except growth from secret stashes (previously colored) and portals (previously built) was indeed considered growth.
Yes, that's the HP wording. Our restriction is significantly milder.

From experience, players start reading the rules only when it comes to a dispute over a real game situation. If they don't find what they need in the rules, they start looking for a competent source - a judge.
Very many questions are asked about what is allowed. We have a clause:
5.14. Actions not prohibited/unrestricted by these rules are permitted.
However, this often proves insufficient, and the "aggrieved party" puts forward the final argument: "Where is that written?"
Therefore, I will move comments on some points to the very end of the rules thread, and that's precisely where Clarifications and explanations will go.

A lot has already been said earlier.
Regarding the latest wording, the strongest opposing argument was "too lazy to read."

Therefore, I have attached a poll regarding the allowance / prohibition of red rush on the XL+U, Diamond, and Mini-Nostalgia templates.
Be careful - you need to place 3 checkmarks in the right places.
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Guys! In my understanding, a "red rush" was something different than what I initially thought. I reread the rule and realized I had misunderstood it. I'm voting for points 2, 4, and 6.
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Voted against everywhere. On the merits, it seems reasonable to me to allow redraw on all templates starting from the fourth week. A redraw on 121 or 131, I think, could be fatal.

Regarding possible influences on the outcome of the battle. Let's say Blue has a scout hero—a non-zero mage with one serpent fly, who has a Death Wave dealing 50 damage in their arsenal. Red, unaware of this, attacks with the weekly growth. First turn goes to Blue; they cast Death Wave, and not all of Red's units die. Red will then say they didn't know about the Death Wave, but do I understand correctly that in this situation, the victory would be awarded to Blue? If I am that Blue player, I will definitely demand that victory.
Let's say Red anticipated the speed and also brought a serpent fly, but Blue accidentally forgot a +1 speed artifact on the scout hero, and the first turn still goes to Blue. Another tech loss? Is that how this is all going to work? One could simply deliberately set up a redraw trap with such cunning schemes. Have I understood everything correctly?
ICQ 423164784

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Allow everywhere, play a season, and draw conclusions.
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Maestro_pro
Guys! The Red - rush in my understanding was something different from what I imagined it to be. I reread the rule and realized I checked the wrong box. I vote for points 2, 4, and 6.
I will take such errors into account, write about it in the thread.
Sanin
Regarding possible influences on the outcome of a battle. Suppose Blue has a scout hero with non-zero magic and one snake, who has death wave dealing 50 damage in their arsenal. Red, unaware of this, attacks with growth. The first turn goes to Blue, they cast death wave, not all of Red’s units die. Red will then say they didn’t know about the death wave, but do I understand correctly that in this situation Blue will be awarded the victory? If I am that Blue, I will definitely demand that victory.
Suppose Red anticipated the speed and also brought a snake, but Blue accidentally forgot an artifact that gives +1 to speed on the scout, and the first turn still goes to Blue. Another tech loss? Is that how this will all work? It could be possible to deliberately set oneself up for a red rush with such cunning plans. Am I understanding everything correctly?
It’s good that you’ve not only "read" the rule but have also started thinking about its application. Keep in mind that you might be Red.
The clarification regarding Gates and Portal was precisely introduced because of one specialist in setups — hiding so as not to be seen and accidentally rushed.
In cases of insignificant Red Rush, players usually ignore it. If it’s really important for Blue, players often agree and replay the moment without the Red Rush. Judges are very rarely involved; the rule is detailed, understanding the situation is not difficult, and the player who committed the Red Rush usually acknowledges it themselves and writes down a loss.
JustObserver
Allow it everywhere, play a season, and draw conclusions.
There is no point in introducing it for just one season, look at the statistics of games on Diamond and Mini-Nostalgia for the spring season.
What conclusions can be drawn from 5–11 games over an entire season across the whole forum (about a hundred players are currently participating in the votes), especially considering that the possibility of a Red Rush occurs far from every game?
It’s more about the entire previous gaming experience and habits.

It would also be good to read Vic’s posts in this thread, after all, he is the author of many templates and wrote the theory quite clearly.

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