The first stage of the tournament "named after Van Kanigem" — Tournament history (offline)

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VDV_forever

19 years ago

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SECOND OFFLINE HEROES OF MIGHT AND MAGIC I TOURNAMENT "NEIGHBORS"

TOURNAMENT RULES

1. To participate in the second offline tournament for Heroes of Might and Magic I "NEIGHBORS", you must register on our website www.heroesworld.ru, as well as submit an application in this thread.

P.S. This tournament is held as part of the general same-named Cunningham tournament, therefore all information, as well as its progress and results, will be displayed in that section.

Турнир имени Jov Van Caneghem-а на HeroesWorld

Note: final tournament results will also be available in the offline tournaments section for Heroes of Might and Magic I.

2. The tournament is played on the Russian version of Heroes of Might and Magic I from Buka. The save will be generated on Russian version 1.1.

3. The goal of the game is to defeat the enemy.
The submitted save must contain the tournament number (2), the participant's number in the application table, the abbreviation (C - NEIGHBORS) and the player's Nick.

Example:

2_1_C_VDV_forever.GM1
2_2_C_AlexeyPank.GM1

4. The result will be evaluated, first and foremost, by the minimum time.
If several players have an equal walkthrough time, the best will be determined by the sum of primary skills (attack, defense, magic, knowledge) INCLUDING EQUIPPED ARTIFACTS; if a favorite is still not determined, then by the amount of mercury.

5. Along with the submitted save, it is mandatory to provide a description of the final step (battle with a hero, battle for a castle, capturing an artifact, victory over the last monster) after which victory occurs, or the walkthrough of the scenario.

6. The submitted save must have only one conquering hero who performs the final action (others should simply be dismissed).

7. It is forbidden: to buy back your dismissed heroes on the same day (i.e., using the "dismissal-buyback" trick);
it is also forbidden to buy heroes who died in battle (not to be confused with those who fled)!

8. It is forbidden: to move a bought-back hero who fled/paid off in battle on the day they fled/paid off. Buying such a hero is allowed, but they can only be moved the following day;

9.It is forbidden: To dig up the Grail without fully uncovering the puzzle map.

10. It is forbidden: to use cheating programs, codes, as well as additional software that can change the game structure.

11. Send the save to the email address VDV_forever@BK.RU

12. In case of suspicion of cheating or other malicious intent during the map walkthrough, a save must be made every game day.
In such a case (detection of cheating), the player will be required to send additional saves and provide a description of the walkthrough to the tournament organizer to determine whether the play was unfair or honest.
The result of a player who played dishonestly will be voided, and their further participation in tournaments will be impossible. This will also reflect poorly on their reputation.

13. Discussion of the tournament during its progress is FORBIDDEN!!!
(Players who violate this rule automatically exclude themselves from playing the tournament; their results will not be counted and will be annulled).

14. The tournament starts on February 1 and lasts until February 28 (inclusive!). Results will be announced on March 3, 2007.

15. After receiving your save, you will see in the application table that:

save accepted - indicated by a bold Nick.
save counted - indicated by an italicized bold Nick.

This list may be expanded with new participants!
We invite everyone to take part in the tournament!

Saves will only be considered for players who are in this table, so submit your applications IN ADVANCE!!!

PARTICIPANT LIST
NUMBER	PLAYER NICK
1	*VDV_forever*
2	*Kyle*
3	Night
4	*Inquisitor*
5	*Zingel*
6	Isabel
7	*AlexeyPank*
8	*GriB_o.k.*
9	*Lexx*
10	*Sage*
11	CrasH
12	*IronAxe*
13	*vbn*
14	*GmiR*
15	*Armadale*
16	*Alex R*
17	vbs
18	WAD
19	mmiha
20	*sergh*
21	*Fireball*
22	*Sir Christian*
23	*Lacky*
24	MasterCard
25	*Oleg RS*
26	*Varg-Nar*
27	*YoshiDo*
28	*Richard I*

Everything about the starting save

Starting save

from 01.02.07 download save:

map from which the save was generated:

1. Download the save.

2. The downloaded Save must be placed on your computer in the GAMES folder of the installed Heroes of Might and Magic I.

3. Load it and start playing at any time convenient for you, while remembering to make daily saves.

4. After reaching the final action (after which victory occurs), save again.

5. With the final save, describe this last step in detail (most likely a battle); then the results will be processed faster and there will be fewer suspicions of cheating!!!

6. A full description of the tournament map is encouraged (optional). If such descriptions are provided, a contest for the best description will be held; 10 of them (the very best) will take their place of honor in the "Hall of Fame" section!

7. Send this save to the specified address (in the rules of this tournament).

8. Wait for the results.

P.S. I wish all tournament participants a great time playing and, most importantly, VICTORY!

P.S.S. If there are any additions or comments, please do not hesitate to speak up to minimize disagreements and shortcomings in the same-named process of the tournament.

Sincerely, VDV_forever

In reply to Alan

VDV_forever

19 years ago

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Alan;66769

The situation with the attack on the Castle was discussed during my first 2nd edition Tournament. Also, a message popped up... but it was one of those cases where I considered my judgment to be better than the computer's. That is, the day in the final save became the result. Because I didn't see the day that was written in the message, so it doesn't exist.

The most interesting thing is that in the 3rd and 5th games, the days are counted in favor of the player:) . Well, never mind, I'll beat the cheater on the same day:smile19:, I think, with a beer and a glass of amber ale, he will be weaker:)

P.S. It's even more interesting this way, to put it mildly.... Although I replayed these 2 (game) days 3 times, the 4th will be the last!

P.P.S.

Alan;66769

Because I didn't see the day that was written in the message, so it doesn't exist.

How is it that you didn't see it (the result in days in the final table?), didn't you check the saves?

Sincerely, VDV_forever

In reply to IronAxe

VDV_forever

19 years ago

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IronAxe;66774

That's one way to do it. But it seems to me that in this case, we are exploiting the flaws in the computer player's AI. A human player wouldn't attack in this situation; they would retreat or go to another Fortress. In principle, we exploit the flaws in the computer's AI throughout the game. But it would be interesting to ask VDV about this, as this situation seems to have only happened to him so far. Tell me, if you use load saves, does the computer player always attack in your case at the start of its turn, in other words, does it repeat the exact same actions on that turn 100% of the time? Yes?

I spent a long time trying to get him to attack the nearest and most important Castle (of course, my Castle), but I achieved this not through load saves, but by properly arranging the troops in the Castles that were equidistant. :smile13:
But, as they say, I didn't enjoy it for long:smile35:.
I never experiment with different computer movements using load saves, because I consider it a waste of time and a very tedious activity.

P.S. It's better to replay for a couple of days with a new tactic:smile14:

Sincerely, VDV_forever

In reply to VDV_forever

IronAxe

19 years ago

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VDV_forever;66786

The most interesting thing is that in 3 and 5, days are counted in the player's favor:) . Oh well, I'll beat the infidel on the same day:smile19: , I think against beer and amber fish, he will be weaker:)
In my opinion, it's not counted in the player's favor in 5, or am I mistaken?
VDV, look at my description of how Ara defended the city of Intim from Gilraen. For some reason (and I no longer remember why) I wrote there that he could have shortened the Walkthrough by one day if he had attacked Gilraen from the city himself? But otherwise, the battle was during the turn transition.

VDV_forever;66786

How is it that you didn't see it (the result in days in the final table?), did you not check the saves?

:) He means that the turn hadn't reached him yet, but a table popped up, so he didn't see the day itself, which is why the table was sent into the fog.

Alan

19 years ago

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How is it that you didn't see it (the result in days in the final table?), did you not check the saves?

No, VDV, you misunderstood. I mean, someone sends me a save. I launch it. I see the day (12 for example). I read the description of the last action: press the "end turn" button. I press it. A battle begins. I win and get the final result. As a result, the day is 13. But I didn't actually see this 13th day. My save is from the 12th. That's why I placed my judging above the computer's. As already mentioned, this issue was discussed in the thread for the HoMM2 tournament and it was decided to count it exactly this way (by the way, three people had saves with this situation. For them, +-1 day didn't change anything, but in any case, I would have done the same).

So I think that to avoid problems, it is still worth judging by saves rather than tables. At least, that's exactly what I did.

In reply to VDV_forever

IronAxe

19 years ago

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VDV_forever;66787

I tried for a very long time to get him to attack the nearest and most important Castle (of course, my Castle), but I achieved this not through save-loading, but through the correct arrangement of troops in Castles located at equal distances.:smile13:

This is interesting. But after you achieved the arrangement of troops in different Castles, does the computer ALWAYS attack that Castle on its turn?

Added after 12 minutes

Alan;66792

So, I think it's still worth judging based on save files rather than tables, to avoid problems. At least, that's what I did.

For example, for VDV, one of the secondary victory parameters is OIL.
And how do you view it, for example? One player will complete the game in 12 days on their turn, and another in 13 days on their turn. If the table provides additional information (I'm referring to Heroes 4), then it shows points for minerals. So, the program will calculate the minerals produced by the mines for the second player on the 13th day. However, the judge subtracts 1 day, so everything needs to be adjusted (experience, minerals, money, and skeletons, for example - depending on what the game is played on). Because the player who won purely on the 12th day on their turn, the program won't calculate this, as the day didn't change.
Therefore, VDV's position is more appealing to me. And in my opinion, there are fewer problems with judging in this case. Because, for example, in Heroes 3, you can't save during a battle. And, for example, you receive a save file that says you need to pass the turn, and the computer will attack, and you need to win. You start playing, but the computer doesn't attack. And the player writes to you that the computer does attack. What do you do?
Will you be able to prove that the player is deceiving you?

Alan

19 years ago

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It's not that difficult to check all of the above in a save file. Besides, the tables 1, 2, and 3 don't display any additional information, only the number of days. It's actually more complicated to calculate how much of something should have increased the next day. For example, how do you see the hero's experience after a battle if the game is already over?

In reply to Alan

IronAxe

19 years ago

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Alan;66799

And it's not that difficult to check all the above in a save. Moreover, tables 1, 2, and 3 don't display anything extra, only days. It's actually harder here to calculate how much of everything should have been added by the next day. Take the hero's experience... how can you see it after the battle if the game is already over...

After the battle, a table shows how much experience was gained for the fight :) Just write it on a piece of paper and add it to what there was before the attack. But I agree that what I wrote applies more to 4. However, please pay attention to this question of mine ?
For example, in 3, you cannot save during combat. And let's say you get a save where it is stated that you must pass the turn and the computer will attack, and you have to win. You start experimenting, but the computer doesn't attack. Meanwhile, the player writes to you that for them, it does attack. What do you do ?
Will you be able to prove that the player is lying to you ?
YES or NO ?

Alan

19 years ago

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Honestly? I can check... For example, I couldn't win the final battle in vbn's save on difficulty level 2, even with his description... He sent it to me in screenshots, and I repeated the moves and won. Besides, as far as I remember, you need to make some changes to disrupt the AI's sequence of actions (similar to how it works with the "Plague" or "Monsters" weeks). Although, it's possible that in the first part, it's completely random, and this applies there as well.

In reply to IronAxe

VDV_forever

19 years ago

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IronAxe;66793

That's interesting. But after you manage to arrange your troops in different castles, does the computer ALWAYS attack that castle on its turn?

In any case, out of 3 attempts, all 3 ended with it attacking the castle I was planning on. But now, that's in the past.

The computer didn't enjoy its victory for long, though I wasn't happy after winning either:(
I realized that the limit of perfection on this map is infinite.

Regarding counting the number of days:

definitely, use the table!:) It's all simple and clear.:smile54:

Sincerely, VDV_forever

In reply to Alan

IronAxe

19 years ago

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Alan;66806

Honestly? I can check... Although, it's possible that in the first part, it's all random, and this applies there as well.

It might be the case in the second and third games. In the first ones, the random spawning of monsters is achieved through a simple load or save/load. Accordingly, the computer's behavior is also unclear. That's why there's confusion with the turn transition. It might attack, or it might not. And I don't dispute that you can verify the battle based on the description and screenshots, but that's not what I was asking about. But VDV says that the computer's behavior didn't change after he achieved that situation. But he only tried three times. You need to try much more to be sure of anything, I mean in the first Heroes game.
Once again. Let's say I send you a save file where the computer doesn't want to attack me during the turn transition, and I know that. And I tell you that on my computer, the computer attacks me during the turn transition, but very, very rarely - once a day - if I load the save file for 24 hours. Will you really run this save file for 24 hours straight? Or how else will you check? And I can draw you screenshots of the battle.

Another question for VDV regarding the hero analysis :)
----------------------------------------------
6. The submitted save file should only contain one hero-conqueror, who performs the last action (the others should simply be dismissed).
----------------------------------------------
If the player finishes the game not with the main hero, but with an auxiliary one, is he obliged to analyze the main hero? Or can he indicate in the accompanying note which hero to finish the game with and which to count for experience? In general, it would have been better to write that the final save file should contain NO MORE than two heroes. Please clarify this again

In reply to VDV_forever

Alan

19 years ago

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VDV_forever;66809

Regarding counting the number of days:

definitely according to the table!:) It's all simple and clear.:smile54:

Sincerely, VDV_forever

Well, that's great... One tournament is counted one way, another differently... Hmm, they found a problem where they didn't expect it... It seems like the issue has already been discussed, resolved, and closed...

VDV, but you're being sent a save file from a specific day. Why isn't it counted?? Because someone had too much to drink when they were creating the table's algorithm (honestly, I just assume that their AI turn doesn't count towards the score. i.e., when the player clicks to end their turn, the next day is immediately assigned to them. And when it starts, there's a check to see if all the victory conditions have been met, and the mission ends. But it's already on the next day)?? Then why is a live judge needed?? They could just send screenshots of the final battles, and that's it...

2 IronAxe. And what if the final battle is won not through auto-combat, but as a result of certain moves, morale/luck (in the 2nd, 3rd, etc., its occurrence is fixed)? Should that also be counted as a loss for the player?? Because they don't have a clear victory... the judge could lose and say "not counted"...

mmiha

19 years ago

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I'd be happy to participate. Is it possible to play already? And when will I appear on the list of participants?

In reply to mmiha

Alex_R

19 years ago

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mmiha;66874

I'd be happy to participate. Can I play now? And when will I appear on the list of participants?

You can play right now; the main thing is to finish before February 27th.
And you'll appear on the list of participants when VDV_forever adds you.

By the way, I'm only starting today (Alan knows why):p

In reply to Alan

IronAxe

19 years ago

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Alan;66872

Why isn't it counted? Because someone had too much to drink when they were creating the table's algorithm (honestly, I just assume that the computer's turn is outside of the scoring. i.e., when the player clicks to end their turn, the next day is immediately assigned to them.

Regardless. If one player wins cleanly on their turn, and the other wins during the turn transition, does that mean they both performed equally well? Because the player who won during the transition might not have had enough time in a full turn to reach the computer. And the person who created the table took that into account. If you can reach it, attack on your turn. What's the problem? Isn't that logical? Otherwise, the computer is just helping the player who ends their turn in the transition.

Alan;66872

And when it starts, a check is performed to see if all the victory conditions have been met, and the mission finale occurs. But already on the next day)? Then why is a live judge needed? They could just send screenshots of the finales, and that would be it...

That's why a judge is needed, to explain this point to the player: what they got according to the table is what they will have :)

Alan;66872

2 IronAxe. And when the final battle is won not through auto-combat, but as a result of certain moves, morale/luck (in the 2nd, 3rd, etc., its occurrence is fixed). Should that also be considered a loss for the player? Because they don't have a clear victory... the judge can lose and say "not counted"...

Of course. If the judge can't win the final battle based on morale/luck (I'm not saying that they will succeed right away), then what's the point of them being there? In other words, in this case, will they just believe the player's word? Have you done this before? I think you just recently stated that you check the final battles very specifically. I hope that's true!

Alan

19 years ago

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Oof, we've drifted off course... As VDV said, there's no point being here without beer 8)).

Our discussion has hit a complete dead end. Let same VDV say something now. Otherwise, you and I will just start writing the same thing over and over. Whether the AI played along or not... it works like this: it didn't actually gift you the Castle, you honestly grabbed it, perhaps even lured the heroes away. And then it attacks you. Or it was somewhere else, you rushed in and snatched the castle, and the attack started. Anyway, we're waiting for comments. Because with all due respect to you, IronAxe, we've really started running in circles.

P.S. No, my check was performed very thoroughly. But there was a real situation where I couldn't pass a battle until they sent me screenshots of every turn with the exact location of the units. No "taking your word for it" (although this is supposedly a tournament for HEROES and I hope all participants play fair).